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Post  Guest on 2013-08-28, 2:30 am

First topic in this section, and a situation that is happening right now.

Some kind of military strike seems inevitable on Syria, probably led by the Americans, the french are also sniffing for a bit of action, and no doubt the UK will play some part.

Russia is saying 'no', Iran is warning of possible retaliation, Al Qaeda will be loving this.


It's a civil war, and by interffering, it's picking a side, that's without all the innocent casualties of war.

Chemical weapons, open a whole new ball game, so should the good old politicians condemn thousands of more to death, or just let the Syrians slaughter each other?
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Post  Black Cat Kiwi on 2013-08-28, 8:10 am

I'm sure money will win out when any decision is made.

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Post  Guest on 2013-08-28, 8:22 am

Black Cat Kiwi wrote:I'm sure money will win out when any decision is made.

Don't know mind, this just coming out

David Cameron will hold war talks at Downing Street today as military commanders draw up plans for missile strikes against Syria.

Mr Cameron will chair a meeting of the National Security Council (NSC) after insisting the West must not "stand idly by" in the wake of Syria's suspected chemical attack.

In talks by telephone last night with US president Barack Obama, the two leaders agreed that "all the information available confirmed a chemical weapons attack had taken place", said a Downing Street spokesperson.

http://news.sky.com/story/1133944/syria-crisis-cameron-holds-war-talks


Lots more people about to die imo.
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Post  Black Cat Kiwi on 2013-08-28, 9:52 am

commachio wrote:
Black Cat Kiwi wrote:I'm sure money will win out when any decision is made.
Don't know mind, this just coming out

David Cameron will hold war talks at Downing Street today as military commanders draw up plans for missile strikes against Syria.

Mr Cameron will chair a meeting of the National Security Council (NSC) after insisting the West must not "stand idly by" in the wake of Syria's suspected chemical attack.

In talks by telephone last night with US president Barack Obama, the two leaders agreed that "all the information available confirmed a chemical weapons attack had taken place", said a Downing Street spokesperson.

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Lots more people about to die imo.
Bound to either way.
The West getting paid to test out it's system's, profiteering comes to mind. I pity the poor soles who'll lose their lives fighting in a foreign land just doing what their Government says is right.

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Post  Hieronymus on 2013-08-28, 10:38 am

I am a pacifist by nature and abhor war and all weaponry. I agree that deliberately using biological and chemical weapons, which indiscriminately kills civilians, is beyond the pale and action needs to be taken. BUT, if we sanction air strikes then we also run the significant risk of doing the exact same thing! Killing civilians indiscriminately makes us just as bad as the government we want to see deposed. It does not make sense. Unless the air strikes are targeted on Assad's palace and army HQ and can be that precise I could not agree with such action. Even then staff and innocent people will be killed, people who are just doing their jobs and don't support the president or any side.

It is a complete mess and it just shows that we don't learn from history, even the recent history of Iraq and Afghanistan. Need a depressed smiley (even if that is an oxymoron! Smile )
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Post  Guest on 2013-08-28, 10:42 am

Hieronymus wrote:I am a pacifist by nature and abhor war and all weaponry. I agree that deliberately using biological and chemical weapons, which indiscriminately kills civilians, is beyond the pale and action needs to be taken. BUT, if we sanction air strikes then we also run the significant risk of doing the exact same thing! Killing civilians indiscriminately makes us just as bad as the government we want to see deposed. It does not make sense. Unless the air strikes are targeted on Assad's palace and army HQ and can be that precise I could not agree with such action. Even then staff and innocent people will be killed, people who are just doing their jobs and don't support the president or any side.

It is a complete mess and it just shows that we don't learn from history, even the recent history of Iraq and Afghanistan. Need a depressed smiley (even if that is an oxymoron! Smile )
Could possibly get a lot worse than that, what say Iran sticks it's nose in, and then some others, and during all this there is a small neighbouring country with itchy fingers named Israel.
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Post  cyprussyd on 2013-08-28, 12:51 pm

I'm coming round to thinking all we can do is sit here and look after ourselves because I just cant see an end to it all.

The fact seems to be that evil people exist in our world and whatever we do and where ever we do it never seems to improve things or stop the evil from prevailing.

We could go back generations but lets just look, Sadam and Gaddafi dead but still people die on a daily basis, where we not all better when we knew who the evil dictators were, yes people died but everyone knew who did it.

Now people just die, a bomb here, a bomb there and all we have achieved is sending some of our people to die with them.

We also get choosy about who we allow to die and who we decide to save, that nasty man in Syria must be stopped but the nasty man in Zimbabwe can carry on.

I have no answer and simple cant see the deaths stopping but I cant see that our leaders have an answer and their solutions, so far have still not stopped the dying.


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Post  Guest on 2013-08-28, 1:08 pm

cyprussyd wrote:I'm coming round to thinking all we can do is sit here and look after ourselves because I just cant see an end to it all.

The fact seems to be that evil  people exist in our world and whatever we do and where ever we do it never seems to improve things or stop the evil from prevailing.

We could go back generations but lets just look, Sadam and Gaddafi dead but still people die on a daily basis, where we not all better when we knew who the evil dictators were, yes people died but everyone knew who did it.

Now people just die, a bomb here, a bomb there and all we have achieved is sending some of our people to die with them.

We also get choosy about who we allow to die and who we decide to save, that nasty man in Syria must be stopped but the nasty man in Zimbabwe can carry on.

I have no answer and simple cant see the deaths stopping but I cant see that our leaders have an answer and their solutions, so far have still not stopped the dying.

I'm at a crossroads here.

Being a bit of a war monger in my younger days, it's not easy to say, 'f*ck it, keep our noses out'.

Maybe that is the correct thing to do, and keep out of other peoples problems, a civil war, where people will die, but it's people from that country, let them kill each other.

A few events from the past are bugging myself as to which way other countries should act...


1. Saddam, gasses and murdered thousands of his own, the Kurds, the world did little.

2. Cambodia, the world sat on it's arse whilst Pol Pot massacred 1/3 of the countries population. Why? Because they had just had their arses spanked in Vietnam. But the world is bigger than the yanks, and every country sat idly by, until the Vietnamese (yes the same country who had seen it's population decimated by said American, came to the aid of the Cambodian population.



So the dilemma.

Risks so many lives, in order to try and save the population, or sit idly by and let them destroy each other.
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Post  cyprussyd on 2013-08-28, 1:15 pm

Well I am and have always been a anti war monger so maybe I come at things from a different angle. All war, killing, evil should be stopped and all people should help each other and live happily in peace, if only.

So the facts seem to me to be people will die and all we can do is try and help, advise, educate to stop people killing each other, doubr it will help a lot because evil wont listen. So will getting involved make things better or worse>

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Post  Guest on 2013-08-28, 1:37 pm

cyprussyd wrote:Well I am and have always been a anti war monger so maybe I come at things from a different angle. All war, killing, evil should be stopped and all people should help each other and live happily in peace, if only.

So the facts seem to me to be people will die and all we can do is try and help, advise, educate to stop people killing each other, doubr it will help a lot because evil wont listen. So will getting involved make things better or worse>
Really don't know mate.

There are 2 scenarios, that are way better than the rest.

1. They talk it out, and people responsible for the chemical attacks are imprisoned. This will never happen without Russian support.
2. Tactical air strikes, take out the intended targets, yes still casualties, but.

The rest of the scenarios are frankly, quite scary, and all could go tits up.
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Post  Hieronymus on 2013-08-28, 1:55 pm

That's the problem, there is no action that does not involve innocent people dying. What I don't understand is why such horrors are happening more and more frequently. After the First World War we said 'never again'. then after the Second World War we said 'Really never again'. Then after Korea, and Vietnam and Rwanda and hundreds of other conflicts we said 'Really, really, really we must not let this happen again. But it still does! I thought the human race was evolving to a higher level of civilisation but all we seem to be doing is finding more evil and cruel ways to kill and torture each other. What a world we have created for our children and grandchildren.

Still need that 'depressed' smiley, maybe a 'doubly depressed' one Sad 
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Post  cyprussyd on 2013-08-28, 2:00 pm

Hieronymus wrote:That's the problem, there is no action that does not involve innocent people dying. What I don't understand is why such horrors are happening more and more frequently. After the First World War we said 'never again'. then after the Second World War we said 'Really never again'. Then after Korea, and Vietnam and Rwanda and hundreds of other conflicts we said 'Really, really, really we must not let this happen again. But it still does! I thought the human race was evolving to a higher level of civilisation but all we seem to be doing is finding more evil and cruel ways to kill and torture each other. What a world we have created for our children and grandchildren.

Still need that 'depressed' smiley, maybe a 'doubly depressed' one Sad 
depressed depressed depressed depressed depressed depressed 

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Post  Guest on 2013-08-28, 2:19 pm

Hieronymus wrote:That's the problem, there is no action that does not involve innocent people dying. What I don't understand is why such horrors are happening more and more frequently. After the First World War we said 'never again'. then after the Second World War we said 'Really never again'. Then after Korea, and Vietnam and Rwanda and hundreds of other conflicts we said 'Really, really, really we must not let this happen again. But it still does! I thought the human race was evolving to a higher level of civilisation but all we seem to be doing is finding more evil and cruel ways to kill and torture each other. What a world we have created for our children and grandchildren.

Still need that 'depressed' smiley, maybe a 'doubly depressed' one Sad 


There's the problem, people actually believe this.

The world is heading one way, and it's in the wrong direction.


It's actually when i read statements like this (not having a pop H), it makes me sway to the way of the only way to resolve this situation is through force.

There are many a good person in this world, 2 on this thread in Syd and H, but i find with the goodness also comes a naivety, a one that believes situations like this can never happen.



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Post  cyprussyd on 2013-08-28, 2:28 pm

commachio wrote:
Hieronymus wrote:That's the problem, there is no action that does not involve innocent people dying. What I don't understand is why such horrors are happening more and more frequently. After the First World War we said 'never again'. then after the Second World War we said 'Really never again'. Then after Korea, and Vietnam and Rwanda and hundreds of other conflicts we said 'Really, really, really we must not let this happen again. But it still does! I thought the human race was evolving to a higher level of civilisation but all we seem to be doing is finding more evil and cruel ways to kill and torture each other. What a world we have created for our children and grandchildren.

Still need that 'depressed' smiley, maybe a 'doubly depressed' one Sad 

There's the problem, people actually believe this.

The world is heading one way, and it's in the wrong direction.


It's actually when i read statements like this (not having a pop H), it makes me sway to the way of the only way to resolve this situation is through force.

There are many a good person in this world, 2 on this thread in Syd and H, but i find with the goodness also comes a naivety, a one that believes situations like this can  never happen.



funny how you can say one thing and people read something completely different.

I am well aware of all the nasty things going on in the world and to hope things will improve seems to me a good thing, however I have said I dont see how they will so its what to do.

I am fine with going in like Rambo to solve the worlds problems, once someone shows me how it improves things, in films yes but in real life, cant see it.

the world and his wife will say how Iraq is better off without Saddam but do the Iraqi's think that, doubt if those murdered on a daily basis think so.

we have worked hard in Afghanistan and are now ready to withdraw but many wont return alive, in the end only talking and negotiating with the Taliban will give the country a chance, sad we could not have started there.

Syria is a bloodbath and with our leaders deciding to sort it, I guess it will become a bigger and wider spread bloodbath.

My point is, if we cant help make it better then why not see if we can at least make our little bit of the world better.


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Post  Guest on 2013-08-28, 2:42 pm

Because sadly Syd the two are linked.

There will be blood shed in Syria, but it will have a knock on effect, that will result in blood shed in the UK the USA and whoever sides with them.

Many a city in the UK are boiling hot spots, they will take their revenge anyway they can get it.
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Post  Guest on 2013-08-28, 4:47 pm

I'm at a loss as to which way to go here. Like you Comm, I am ex HMAF too.
The military go & do what the politicians tell them.
You average squaddie on the ground, pilot in the air or crewman on a battleship have no say in the matter, they just get on with it.
They do however all have opinions. Mine is that the military top brass have, many times in the past, been a bunch of useless knackers.

UK & USA seem very selective in which civil wars they "assist" or more correctly, poke their beaks in.
We all sat by & let the Bosnian War unfold on our TV screens until the situation became one the west could no longer ignor.
When I went we were under the UN peacekeeping force & couldn't really do owt unless we were aggressed upon.
It was a sickening situation.

Several civil wars on the African continent were allowed to play out without intervention, governments condoning ultimate genocide.
Make no mistake, Iraq & Kuwait were about oil, nowt else. Get rid of the dictators & install a puppet government that will cow tow to the USA.

Syria has some very powerful allies in Russia, China & Iran. Imagine the carnage if they all get dragged in?
Weapons of mass distruction was used as an excuse by that wanker Bush as an excuse to go to war with Iraq second time around.
Ten years later & nowt has been found. And do you not find it rather surprising that Dr Hans Blix is suddenly dead?

The action in Afghanistan, they said it was to fight Al-Quida & the Taliban. Well as far as I'm concerned there is no concrete evidence that they had owt to do with 911.

Apart from the American war of independence, what was the last war they actually won?
Twatted in Vietnam, twatted in Korea once the Chinese became involved & took a pasting in Somalia when a raid on Mogadishu should have taken no more than 24 hrs.

Nowt against the average Yank but I despise the last 60 years of their governments, especially their foreign policies.
They can go f*ck themselves imo.
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Post  Hieronymus on 2013-08-28, 5:00 pm

I probably should have written "I thought the human race was supposed to be evolving into a higher level of civilisation". I agree the evidence is to the contrary.

Like Syd, I don't believe I am naive, but just don't see how more force will solve the problem when it has never worked anywhere. Military intervention just energises the fundamentalists and creates martyrs to revere, and as you say, before we know it we have another 9/11 and not necessarily in the USA. Then again I railed against the UN when they did not intervene in Rwanda, so of course it does not seem right to stand by and let a brutal civil war kill thousands of innocents, and create millions of refugees.

This is one of those times where I am glad I am not in government because no matter which way the decision goes, people are going to die. We just have to hope for the 'least worst' outcome.
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Post  Guest on 2013-08-28, 7:53 pm

I believe it is confirmed that chemical weapons have been used, but both the govenment forces and the rebels are blaming each other, so as sad as it is, the Russians are correct in this instance by saying it cant be proven who actually used these vile weapons.

I think we need to proceed with caution, perhaps offer humanitarian aid, Jordan is being overwhelmed with refugees, so perhaps we could start there.

I think too many of our young men and women have lost their lives in the last few decades, it's awful what's happening in the middle east, Assad is unwilling to step down, and the terror continues, hard to believe he was a medical doctor, and his wife was born and raised in England.Evil or Very Mad
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Post  cyprussyd on 2013-08-28, 10:08 pm

Debate in commons tomorrow, Thursday with MP's recalled

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Post  cyprussyd on 2013-08-29, 6:37 am

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Post  Guest on 2013-08-29, 6:55 am

Billy D wrote:I'm at a loss as to which way to go here. Like you Comm, I am ex HMAF too.
The military go & do what the politicians tell them.
You average squaddie on the ground, pilot in the air or crewman on a battleship have no say in the matter, they just get on with it.
They do however all have opinions. Mine is that the military top brass have, many times in the past, been a bunch of useless knackers.

UK & USA seem very selective in which civil wars they "assist" or more correctly, poke their beaks in.
We all sat by & let the Bosnian War unfold on our TV screens until the situation became one the west could no longer ignor.
When I went we were under the UN peacekeeping force & couldn't really do owt unless we were aggressed upon.
It was a sickening situation.

Several civil wars on the African continent were allowed to play out without intervention, governments condoning ultimate genocide.
Make no mistake, Iraq & Kuwait were about oil, nowt else. Get rid of the dictators & install a puppet government that will cow tow to the USA.

Syria has some very powerful allies in Russia, China & Iran. Imagine the carnage if they all get dragged in?
Weapons of mass distruction was used as an excuse by that wanker Bush as an excuse to go to war with Iraq second time around.
Ten years later & nowt has been found. And do you not find it rather surprising that Dr Hans Blix is suddenly dead?

The action in Afghanistan, they said it was to fight Al-Quida & the Taliban. Well as far as I'm concerned there is no concrete evidence that they had owt to do with 911.

Apart from the American war of independence, what was the last war they actually won?
Twatted in Vietnam, twatted in Korea once the Chinese became involved & took a pasting in Somalia when a raid on Mogadishu should have taken no more than 24 hrs.

Nowt against the average Yank but I despise the last 60 years of their governments, especially their foreign policies.
They can go f*ck themselves imo.
Excellent post Billy mate.

The Isreali's calling in reservists now, oil prices on the increase already, tensions rising.


I did note one point in your post, twatted in Vietnam, well yes and no..

They lost many a life in the jungles there, but ultimately they didn't lose the war in those jungles, they lost the Vietnam war in America, once the people turned against it, due to their massive blunders all the time.

Not easy to fight an enemy whose philosopy is 'we are prepared to lose ten men for every American we kill'.
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Post  Guest on 2013-08-29, 7:22 am

Just going to stick my two peneth in here!
There was a report in the Daily Mail that the US was going to use a false flag attack in Syria as an excuse for military action! Now this story was pulled very quickly and now here we are several months later with a chemical attack which can be attributed to either side depending on which secret service agency you listen to. Both sides have used chemical weapons already. So why suddenly act on this one.
Air strikes as has already been said will kill innocent victims. And will radicalise more young men and women against the west both at home and across the world.
The Western governments US in particular are very subjective of where they stick their noses into and what they see as right! What about Israel's use of white phosphorus (a banned chemical weapon) against the Palestinians and the Genocide happening there the US and The West aren't proposing air strikes against Israel are they.
If they have proof lets see the evidence in public or is this just another dodge MI6 /CIA Dossier!
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Post  Guest on 2013-08-29, 7:30 am

froggy1973 wrote:Just going to stick my two peneth in here!
There was a report in the Daily Mail that the US was going to use a false flag attack in Syria as an excuse for military action! Now this story was pulled very quickly and now here we are several months later with a chemical attack which can be attributed to either side depending on which secret service agency you listen to. Both sides have used chemical weapons already. So why suddenly act on this one.
Air strikes as has already been said will kill innocent victims. And will radicalise more young men and women against the west both at home and across the world.
The Western governments US in particular are very subjective of where they stick their noses into and what they see as right! What about Israel's use of white phosphorus (a banned chemical weapon) against the Palestinians and the Genocide happening there the US and The West aren't proposing air strikes against Israel are they.
If they have proof lets see the evidence in public or is this just another dodge MI6 /CIA Dossier!
Not at all mate, this is exactly why i asked Syd for this section of the forum to be made.

It is true that Israel did use white phosphorus, bur is it a banned substance?

Now the USA seem undecided as to what to do, now saying there may be limited strikes as a warning not to do it again, WTF is all that about?

I'v seen some horrific video's of over there, one of which was 3 captured Syrian soldiers, claimed to be responsible for firing chemical mortars..

This whole scenario could have a massive effect on so many countries.
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Post  Guest on 2013-08-29, 7:51 am

White Phosphorus is not banned if used to create a smoke screen but it is banned and classed as a chemical weapon if used against people! The US used it in Iraq as a weapon so shouldn't we bomb them as a warning!
If you are going to have"limited" air strikes as a warning what are your targets?
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Post  Guest on 2013-08-29, 7:59 am

froggy1973 wrote:White Phosphorus is not banned if used to create a smoke screen but it is banned and classed as a chemical weapon if used against people! The US used it in Iraq as a weapon so shouldn't we bomb them as a warning!
If you are going to have"limited" air strikes as a warning what are your targets?
They also used to have a liking for Napalm.

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Syria again Fire9a2
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