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Post  cyprussyd on 2019-01-21, 6:45 pm

Panic over, Mrs May's plan B will work, its far better than plan A and is Sure to overturn that 230 who rejected plan A, UNLESS THEY READ IT.

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Post  Guest on 2019-01-21, 9:06 pm

Can't work.. it is not a Leap Year...
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Post  cyprussyd on 2019-01-21, 9:11 pm

Silvers wrote:Can't work.. it is not a Leap Year...
No, Lords a leaping comes later

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Post  Guest on 2019-01-21, 11:20 pm

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Post  Guest on 2019-01-21, 11:31 pm

Slightly off topic




GENERAL ELECTION - 1992 - NORTH WEST DURHAM




BREXIT - Page 4 8F5KxMtsVwAvLNP6HUaa-IsOyRaJDEyGpy7bvEwAiqD3q4RGkqaxVDuKISB_y0lOQviXLvEprfvU3r6sjVBiNOUKudJACL_gJKScK9lJiXvGV6Bu0PjgT23labwI9N4Oj9wB7O4eWQpHbyeWGf_Q33R6gLEhfx0IlwL5if6AFlsqaSawpfkxuSfXgrH4lRyrJIJ-AnG_FaF6MkTrdCxq7kj4PzUdxQGpAxWTeClaTAFrqkspyLQyy6Is707GWz4ePEpD6YPaj4-b9GWbnX4EdCON23FNmsjcMQNKlcz8XwCng9knQ9uTAIQG4I2oSzBNhZ5c4VXFGCPucn_nAsQcic-cBrFUI5PGZQikZXXznN6v28P1ziHRz38u7bk5GHsvzSttbQmHTRL22GOlbF2l9HTEwDskVFRCal2NI5vSZYFQ768bH95uwvjSHxZ96LBzZb-Erb7ECD6vYayrW75a5q_LfyupQbeD0A4oAA5sb0YDJL3UCG5xH-DB7jenYwBYXL4Jb_OdVccRnNfT_nLMkGO2kInYWVfMxBTSBO6su2qcpHXDkgfTA7egbCzBVyQrrP5R-3KqvynzrdQlnqVbYwAIWEFRztkKJ_1exeSnG6XAg9rPcvMrhaFvspyg1GdUySmRtUWTSLlt7xDBexi5jcg7=w600-h338-no
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Post  Hieronymus on 2019-01-22, 9:01 am

Any 'out means outers' should have a read of this. Don't expect any one to believe it though as no one seems to believe anything these days."It is all a plot to stop brexit" , "It is not democratic", "17million voted out" is all i hear and read.

Well here is some maths no one ever talks about - 37.4% of the population (17,410,742) voted OUT and 34.7% voted REMAIN (16,141,241) but around 13, 000,000 or 27.8% did not vote at all. Maybe because they could not decide and maybe because they thought Remain would win easily - but what this amounts to is that over 29,000,000 people in the UK DID NOT VOTE OUT and who speaks for them if not their MPs?

The UK has a representative democracy and we should not be ruled by minority interests or the mob, although public discourse has got so toxic it almost feels like it.

Governments and MPs should always remember they represent everyone - not just the people who voted for them. This Governemnt has clearly forgotten this. And personally I think the country has lost its collective mind over this whole issue Crying or Very sad

North-east England will be hit hardest by no-deal Brexit, says CBI
Business lobby group provides region-by-region breakdown of potential damage
Richard Partington Economics correspondent

Tue 22 Jan 2019 00.01 GMT
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Nissan’s car manufacturing plant in Sunderland. Photograph: Christopher Furlong/Getty Images 

North-east England would suffer the biggest decline in economic output of any UK region by the middle of the 2030s if the country leaves the EU without a deal, according to an analysis of government figures by Britain’s leading business lobby group.
The Confederation of British Industry said the region could be among the hardest hit by a no-deal Brexit in less than 70 days’ time given the high percentage of exports of goods to the EU compared with other parts of the country.

Should Britain either choose to exit without a deal or fail to agree a compromise with Brussels, the gross value added (GVA) – a measure of the economic value of goods and services – could be reduced by 10.5% in the north-east by 2034 compared with the UK’s current arrangements.
The CBI said this would be equivalent to a loss of output worth £7bn, which is about twice the amount spent on schools and education in the region each year.
The lobby group said that high levels of manufacturing activity, including thousands of workers in the car industry, meant north-east England was “particularly exposed to the risk of higher tariffs and trade costs” in the event of Britain leaving the EU without a deal.
Goods exports to the EU from the region, as a percentage of total exports, are as high as 59%, meaning border delays, additional customs checks and other costs would hit it hard.
Josh Hardie, the deputy director general of the CBI, said: “The projected impact on the UK economy would be devastating and, while business will do all it can to reduce some of the worst aspects, a no-deal scenario is unmanageable.”
While the north-east would see the biggest proportional impact, the CBI said that the biggest reduction in economic output by value would come in London. GVA would be about 6% lower by 2034, the lowest of any region, but the scale of the capital’s economy means the value lost would be about £40bn.
Some pro-Brexit economists argue that a no-deal exit would have little impact, and could even boost economic growth, although their findings are often disputed.
The analysis from the CBI, which had previously argued for MPs to support Theresa May’s Brexit plan because there was a lack of alternative options, provides a breakdown by region for the potential hit from a no-deal departure.
GVA could be 8.1% by 2034 in Scotland, worth about £14bn in lost economic output per year by 2034. Wales would also see the loss of £7bn and Northern Ireland the loss of £5bn.
The West Midlands, which also has higher levels of manufacturing activity than other parts of the country, would see a loss of £18bn, while north-west England would suffer a hit of £20bn.

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Post  cyprussyd on 2019-01-22, 12:30 pm

H I would not think in getting into a debate on facts and figures with you, its your thing and certainly not mine.

I voted out and would do again but I did not vote for the out we are heading towards, more a very soft BREXIT that kept us close to the EU but also gave us some control, BREXIT for me is not the problem, the governments handling of it is.

If the result is overturned I will be annoyed and feel like my vote is worthless, why bother. In any election/referendum many dont vote, some are to young and some cant be bothered and if they cant be bothered it IMO loses their right to complain about the outcome.

I feel like, and your posts highlights it, that I have a gun to my head and are being bullied into changing my mind, all that will ever do is make me more determined to back my vote and vote the same way if I have to.

Out does indeed mean out and its time our politicians worked to get the best possible out, if we leave and its a mess many will blame me and other leavers, I will blame the people who have made a mess of getting us a good, sensible deal.

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Post  Guest on 2019-01-22, 1:02 pm

Hieronymus wrote:Any 'out means outers' should have a read of this. Don't expect any one to believe it though as no one seems to believe anything these days."It is all a plot to stop brexit" , "It is not democratic", "17million voted out" is all i hear and read.

Well here is some maths no one ever talks about - 37.4% of the population (17,410,742) voted OUT and 34.7% voted REMAIN (16,141,241) but around 13, 000,000 or 27.8% did not vote at all. Maybe because they could not decide and maybe because they thought Remain would win easily - but what this amounts to is that over 29,000,000 people in the UK DID NOT VOTE OUT and who speaks for them if not their MPs?

The UK has a representative democracy and we should not be ruled by minority interests or the mob, although public discourse has got so toxic it almost feels like it.

Governments and MPs should always remember they represent everyone - not just the people who voted for them. This Governemnt has clearly forgotten this. And personally I think the country has lost its collective mind over this whole issue Crying or Very sad

North-east England will be hit hardest by no-deal Brexit, says CBI
Business lobby group provides region-by-region breakdown of potential damage
Richard Partington Economics correspondent

Tue 22 Jan 2019 00.01 GMT
BREXIT - Page 4 5760

Nissan’s car manufacturing plant in Sunderland. Photograph: Christopher Furlong/Getty Images 

North-east England would suffer the biggest decline in economic output of any UK region by the middle of the 2030s if the country leaves the EU without a deal, according to an analysis of government figures by Britain’s leading business lobby group.
The Confederation of British Industry said the region could be among the hardest hit by a no-deal Brexit in less than 70 days’ time given the high percentage of exports of goods to the EU compared with other parts of the country.

Should Britain either choose to exit without a deal or fail to agree a compromise with Brussels, the gross value added (GVA) – a measure of the economic value of goods and services – could be reduced by 10.5% in the north-east by 2034 compared with the UK’s current arrangements.
The CBI said this would be equivalent to a loss of output worth £7bn, which is about twice the amount spent on schools and education in the region each year.
The lobby group said that high levels of manufacturing activity, including thousands of workers in the car industry, meant north-east England was “particularly exposed to the risk of higher tariffs and trade costs” in the event of Britain leaving the EU without a deal.
Goods exports to the EU from the region, as a percentage of total exports, are as high as 59%, meaning border delays, additional customs checks and other costs would hit it hard.
Josh Hardie, the deputy director general of the CBI, said: “The projected impact on the UK economy would be devastating and, while business will do all it can to reduce some of the worst aspects, a no-deal scenario is unmanageable.”
While the north-east would see the biggest proportional impact, the CBI said that the biggest reduction in economic output by value would come in London. GVA would be about 6% lower by 2034, the lowest of any region, but the scale of the capital’s economy means the value lost would be about £40bn.
Some pro-Brexit economists argue that a no-deal exit would have little impact, and could even boost economic growth, although their findings are often disputed.
The analysis from the CBI, which had previously argued for MPs to support Theresa May’s Brexit plan because there was a lack of alternative options, provides a breakdown by region for the potential hit from a no-deal departure.
GVA could be 8.1% by 2034 in Scotland, worth about £14bn in lost economic output per year by 2034. Wales would also see the loss of £7bn and Northern Ireland the loss of £5bn.
The West Midlands, which also has higher levels of manufacturing activity than other parts of the country, would see a loss of £18bn, while north-west England would suffer a hit of £20bn.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/22/north-east-england-will-be-hit-hardest-by-no-deal-brexit-says-cbi

Remoaners spouting Chicken Little yet again. Big business corporates have always wanted the EU as it allows them to do what they want.

Rather than the vote in 2016 causing economic problems.
We now have record employment

No matter how many time the term Peoples vote is used...all it means is a 2nd Referendum hoping to change the first one.
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Post  Guest on 2019-01-24, 11:59 am

EU Thoughts
 
Back in the 70s I voted to join and this time round I have voted to leave. Perhaps it was the optimism of youth, but I liked the idea of less wars and more trade. Certainly there has been less wars, but the trade/business/industry question is open to dispute, plus the problems the EU has created and likely furure has been tipping me away from being a supporter.
 
The EU originally started off with a few countries concerned about coal and steel, this federation never really worked, it is now basically defunct. Now Poland still has lots of coal power stations and China has smashed steel production in the EU (and in the UK in particular, I believe the EU gave a grant to Redcar for an arts facility when the steel works closed down…great huh). Certainly by any measure the energy policy of the EU is awful because of the subsidies it still gives to fossil fuels, although of course ridiculously it has regulations about how powerful vacuum cleaners and hairdryers can be.  There is a problem of course in setting good policy if you have 27 very diverse countries in a union all wanting to support their own particular needs and if you have a central bureaucracy intent on pursuing a united states of Europe. For example Germany does not have any nuclear plants, because to win votes/election German politicians promised not to have any, resulting in being dependant on Comrade Putin as the vast amount of gas they use comes from Russia, thereby having to dance to his tune.  I fully expect renewables to form the main part of electricity required in the future, nuclear will play a part (although it is more likely to be small plants rather than huge ones) even though it is expensive, in order to keep the lights on. 
 
Then the CAP, the Common Agricultural Policy, it actually still continues to distort farming badly, but nothing can be done about it because of votes in France and Germany.
 
The Eurozone is failing and may well dissolve. It has seriously damaged Greece, Spain and Italy (plus France though Macron will not admit it). The Eurozone effect together with the migration policy plus free movement within the EU has been behind the surge in support for right wing parties in many countries, and politics has become very toxic (in the UK the BREXIT question is poisonous).
 
In the UK, leavers have argued that having free movement has reduced wages. I think there are good and bad issues to consider on this. If you have ever been in hospital lately you will see how many dedicated EU medics are keeping the NHS going. On the other hand ‘The Boys of the Black Stuff’ brickies etc no longer work in London cos they are undercut by lots of trades who have come from East Europe. Below I mention globalisation, construction work and personal services eg hairdressing are jobs that cannot easily be expropriated abroad, but as Europeans move to the UK and take over these jobs? With agriculture I have never understood why east European migrant workers should work for very low wages… pay a decent wage and UK people would work.
 
 
Back in the 70 many leftists were against the Common Market (including Corbyn) because it was primarily seen as an organisation that would help large companies. It does. That is why you should always take anything the CBI says with a huge pinch of salt, as they have a vested interest in keeping the status quo going. I used to spend most of my working life producing forecasts or checking others who produced them, the only point that can be made is 90% were wrong. I am quite amused that the remoaners, in true chicken little manner keep pushing project fear that gets more discredited with every one that is issued. For example, there was a prediction that if the referendum went the way of leave, then there would be immediate economic consequences, if that is the case it has been the opposite as the UK has high employment and wages are starting to rise.  
 
In practical terms the EU favouring big business makes any national government wanting to mitigate the effects of globalisation/Western deindustrialisation a non-starter. For the UK by and large the EU has been supportive of London continuing to grow as a financial centre to counter balance New York’s dominance. However as London has grown the UK economy has become very unbalanced as the industrialised regions have been devastated by globalisation (that is production moving to other countries who pay very little wages and have poor working conditions), so whether you are M&S wanting to produce clothing in the UK for sale in the UK, the competition kills your sales cos they sell a very similar product cheaper. Technology has also made big inroads into jobs, whether you used to work as a clerk in an accountancy office or in a bank or as sales assistant in a high street shop. One prediction that some are making atm is that AI (artificial intelligence) is going to have a similar effect on some jobs.  Certainly being part of the EU makes it harder for national and regional government to implement actions to mitigate the impact of globalisation and technology. London has escaped the worst of this and certainly our own government (especially) Thatcher were willing to go along with big business and the European project. The UK is an island that no longer builds ships or crews them and both the inshore and offshore fishing industry has been passed over to other European countries. I also would have though it politic for defence purposes to keep some steel production in the UK? It is amusing is it not to hear about the Northern Powerhouse, when billions are spent on cross rail but the railway line from Durham to Manchester airport (a big hub) is so poor.
 
I would not say that some pan European projects are not worth doing, for instance I have some knowledge of how Universities and their students can benefit from studying in different countries and having ease of sharing research. Also sharing intelligence about and having combined operations concerning ‘bad actors’ on security and crime issues is obviously a good aim. Whilst I am sure any funding to universities or Interpol from the EU is welcome. Both of these organisations would function better if they were left as independent entities and do not need the dead hand of a 27 country organisation and political interference from a bloated bureaucracy giving it direction and orders.
 
There will be problems divorcing from the EU, with trade and supply chains. However my fundamental understanding from business is that if you have a good product or service keenly priced it will sell.
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Post  canary-dave on 2019-01-24, 1:33 pm

sunderpitt wrote:EU Thoughts
 
Back in the 70s I voted to join and this time round I have voted to leave. Perhaps it was the optimism of youth, but I liked the idea of less wars and more trade. Certainly there has been less wars, but the trade/business/industry question is open to dispute, plus the problems the EU has created and likely furure has been tipping me away from being a supporter.
 
The EU originally started off with a few countries concerned about coal and steel, this federation never really worked, it is now basically defunct. Now Poland still has lots of coal power stations and China has smashed steel production in the EU (and in the UK in particular, I believe the EU gave a grant to Redcar for an arts facility when the steel works closed down…great huh). Certainly by any measure the energy policy of the EU is awful because of the subsidies it still gives to fossil fuels, although of course ridiculously it has regulations about how powerful vacuum cleaners and hairdryers can be.  There is a problem of course in setting good policy if you have 27 very diverse countries in a union all wanting to support their own particular needs and if you have a central bureaucracy intent on pursuing a united states of Europe. For example Germany does not have any nuclear plants, because to win votes/election German politicians promised not to have any, resulting in being dependant on Comrade Putin as the vast amount of gas they use comes from Russia, thereby having to dance to his tune.  I fully expect renewables to form the main part of electricity required in the future, nuclear will play a part (although it is more likely to be small plants rather than huge ones) even though it is expensive, in order to keep the lights on. 
 
Then the CAP, the Common Agricultural Policy, it actually still continues to distort farming badly, but nothing can be done about it because of votes in France and Germany.
 
The Eurozone is failing and may well dissolve. It has seriously damaged Greece, Spain and Italy (plus France though Macron will not admit it). The Eurozone effect together with the migration policy plus free movement within the EU has been behind the surge in support for right wing parties in many countries, and politics has become very toxic (in the UK the BREXIT question is poisonous).
 
In the UK, leavers have argued that having free movement has reduced wages. I think there are good and bad issues to consider on this. If you have ever been in hospital lately you will see how many dedicated EU medics are keeping the NHS going. On the other hand ‘The Boys of the Black Stuff’ brickies etc no longer work in London cos they are undercut by lots of trades who have come from East Europe. Below I mention globalisation, construction work and personal services eg hairdressing are jobs that cannot easily be expropriated abroad, but as Europeans move to the UK and take over these jobs? With agriculture I have never understood why east European migrant workers should work for very low wages… pay a decent wage and UK people would work.
 
 
Back in the 70 many leftists were against the Common Market (including Corbyn) because it was primarily seen as an organisation that would help large companies. It does. That is why you should always take anything the CBI says with a huge pinch of salt, as they have a vested interest in keeping the status quo going. I used to spend most of my working life producing forecasts or checking others who produced them, the only point that can be made is 90% were wrong. I am quite amused that the remoaners, in true chicken little manner keep pushing project fear that gets more discredited with every one that is issued. For example, there was a prediction that if the referendum went the way of leave, then there would be immediate economic consequences, if that is the case it has been the opposite as the UK has high employment and wages are starting to rise.  
 
In practical terms the EU favouring big business makes any national government wanting to mitigate the effects of globalisation/Western deindustrialisation a non-starter. For the UK by and large the EU has been supportive of London continuing to grow as a financial centre to counter balance New York’s dominance. However as London has grown the UK economy has become very unbalanced as the industrialised regions have been devastated by globalisation (that is production moving to other countries who pay very little wages and have poor working conditions), so whether you are M&S wanting to produce clothing in the UK for sale in the UK, the competition kills your sales cos they sell a very similar product cheaper. Technology has also made big inroads into jobs, whether you used to work as a clerk in an accountancy office or in a bank or as sales assistant in a high street shop. One prediction that some are making atm is that AI (artificial intelligence) is going to have a similar effect on some jobs.  Certainly being part of the EU makes it harder for national and regional government to implement actions to mitigate the impact of globalisation and technology. London has escaped the worst of this and certainly our own government (especially) Thatcher were willing to go along with big business and the European project. The UK is an island that no longer builds ships or crews them and both the inshore and offshore fishing industry has been passed over to other European countries. I also would have though it politic for defence purposes to keep some steel production in the UK? It is amusing is it not to hear about the Northern Powerhouse, when billions are spent on cross rail but the railway line from Durham to Manchester airport (a big hub) is so poor.
 
I would not say that some pan European projects are not worth doing, for instance I have some knowledge of how Universities and their students can benefit from studying in different countries and having ease of sharing research. Also sharing intelligence about and having combined operations concerning ‘bad actors’ on security and crime issues is obviously a good aim. Whilst I am sure any funding to universities or Interpol from the EU is welcome. Both of these organisations would function better if they were left as independent entities and do not need the dead hand of a 27 country organisation and political interference from a bloated bureaucracy giving it direction and orders.
 
There will be problems divorcing from the EU, with trade and supply chains. However my fundamental understanding from business is that if you have a good product or service keenly priced it will sell.

What an excellent post Sunders, thank you for helping me to see that my vote to leave was the correct one.   like

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Post  Nostalgic on 2019-01-24, 7:01 pm

My small observations on how EU allegedly caused our current problems are forgetting Thatcher's dual input into wrecking manufacturing base, free marketeering. de-regulation, trickle down economics and introducing worker restrictions.
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Post  cyprussyd on 2019-02-07, 4:07 pm

I voted out but did not vote hard BREXIT. A Corbyn soft BREXIT would be ideal for me. BTW if we had a second vote I would vote out again.
This is simply my opinion, my view and not the opening shot in a BREXIT argument, if you disagree, fine, if you want me to justify my opinion, tough.

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Post  canary-dave on 2019-02-07, 4:23 pm

cyprussyd wrote:I voted out but did not vote hard BREXIT. A Corbyn soft BREXIT would be ideal for me. BTW if we had a second vote I would vote out again.
This is simply my opinion, my view and not the opening shot in a BREXIT argument, if you disagree, fine, if you want me to justify my opinion, tough.
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Post  Guest on 2019-02-07, 4:25 pm

canary-dave wrote:
sunderpitt wrote:EU Thoughts
 
Back in the 70s I voted to join and this time round I have voted to leave. Perhaps it was the optimism of youth, but I liked the idea of less wars and more trade. Certainly there has been less wars, but the trade/business/industry question is open to dispute, plus the problems the EU has created and likely furure has been tipping me away from being a supporter.
 
The EU originally started off with a few countries concerned about coal and steel, this federation never really worked, it is now basically defunct. Now Poland still has lots of coal power stations and China has smashed steel production in the EU (and in the UK in particular, I believe the EU gave a grant to Redcar for an arts facility when the steel works closed down…great huh). Certainly by any measure the energy policy of the EU is awful because of the subsidies it still gives to fossil fuels, although of course ridiculously it has regulations about how powerful vacuum cleaners and hairdryers can be.  There is a problem of course in setting good policy if you have 27 very diverse countries in a union all wanting to support their own particular needs and if you have a central bureaucracy intent on pursuing a united states of Europe. For example Germany does not have any nuclear plants, because to win votes/election German politicians promised not to have any, resulting in being dependant on Comrade Putin as the vast amount of gas they use comes from Russia, thereby having to dance to his tune.  I fully expect renewables to form the main part of electricity required in the future, nuclear will play a part (although it is more likely to be small plants rather than huge ones) even though it is expensive, in order to keep the lights on. 
 
Then the CAP, the Common Agricultural Policy, it actually still continues to distort farming badly, but nothing can be done about it because of votes in France and Germany.
 
The Eurozone is failing and may well dissolve. It has seriously damaged Greece, Spain and Italy (plus France though Macron will not admit it). The Eurozone effect together with the migration policy plus free movement within the EU has been behind the surge in support for right wing parties in many countries, and politics has become very toxic (in the UK the BREXIT question is poisonous).
 
In the UK, leavers have argued that having free movement has reduced wages. I think there are good and bad issues to consider on this. If you have ever been in hospital lately you will see how many dedicated EU medics are keeping the NHS going. On the other hand ‘The Boys of the Black Stuff’ brickies etc no longer work in London cos they are undercut by lots of trades who have come from East Europe. Below I mention globalisation, construction work and personal services eg hairdressing are jobs that cannot easily be expropriated abroad, but as Europeans move to the UK and take over these jobs? With agriculture I have never understood why east European migrant workers should work for very low wages… pay a decent wage and UK people would work.
 
 
Back in the 70 many leftists were against the Common Market (including Corbyn) because it was primarily seen as an organisation that would help large companies. It does. That is why you should always take anything the CBI says with a huge pinch of salt, as they have a vested interest in keeping the status quo going. I used to spend most of my working life producing forecasts or checking others who produced them, the only point that can be made is 90% were wrong. I am quite amused that the remoaners, in true chicken little manner keep pushing project fear that gets more discredited with every one that is issued. For example, there was a prediction that if the referendum went the way of leave, then there would be immediate economic consequences, if that is the case it has been the opposite as the UK has high employment and wages are starting to rise.  
 
In practical terms the EU favouring big business makes any national government wanting to mitigate the effects of globalisation/Western deindustrialisation a non-starter. For the UK by and large the EU has been supportive of London continuing to grow as a financial centre to counter balance New York’s dominance. However as London has grown the UK economy has become very unbalanced as the industrialised regions have been devastated by globalisation (that is production moving to other countries who pay very little wages and have poor working conditions), so whether you are M&S wanting to produce clothing in the UK for sale in the UK, the competition kills your sales cos they sell a very similar product cheaper. Technology has also made big inroads into jobs, whether you used to work as a clerk in an accountancy office or in a bank or as sales assistant in a high street shop. One prediction that some are making atm is that AI (artificial intelligence) is going to have a similar effect on some jobs.  Certainly being part of the EU makes it harder for national and regional government to implement actions to mitigate the impact of globalisation and technology. London has escaped the worst of this and certainly our own government (especially) Thatcher were willing to go along with big business and the European project. The UK is an island that no longer builds ships or crews them and both the inshore and offshore fishing industry has been passed over to other European countries. I also would have though it politic for defence purposes to keep some steel production in the UK? It is amusing is it not to hear about the Northern Powerhouse, when billions are spent on cross rail but the railway line from Durham to Manchester airport (a big hub) is so poor.
 
I would not say that some pan European projects are not worth doing, for instance I have some knowledge of how Universities and their students can benefit from studying in different countries and having ease of sharing research. Also sharing intelligence about and having combined operations concerning ‘bad actors’ on security and crime issues is obviously a good aim. Whilst I am sure any funding to universities or Interpol from the EU is welcome. Both of these organisations would function better if they were left as independent entities and do not need the dead hand of a 27 country organisation and political interference from a bloated bureaucracy giving it direction and orders.
 
There will be problems divorcing from the EU, with trade and supply chains. However my fundamental understanding from business is that if you have a good product or service keenly priced it will sell.

What an excellent post Sunders, thank you for helping me to see that my vote to leave was the correct one.   like
In your opinion of course.
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Post  cyprussyd on 2019-02-07, 5:49 pm

Silvers wrote:
canary-dave wrote:
sunderpitt wrote:EU Thoughts
 
Back in the 70s I voted to join and this time round I have voted to leave. Perhaps it was the optimism of youth, but I liked the idea of less wars and more trade. Certainly there has been less wars, but the trade/business/industry question is open to dispute, plus the problems the EU has created and likely furure has been tipping me away from being a supporter.
 
The EU originally started off with a few countries concerned about coal and steel, this federation never really worked, it is now basically defunct. Now Poland still has lots of coal power stations and China has smashed steel production in the EU (and in the UK in particular, I believe the EU gave a grant to Redcar for an arts facility when the steel works closed down…great huh). Certainly by any measure the energy policy of the EU is awful because of the subsidies it still gives to fossil fuels, although of course ridiculously it has regulations about how powerful vacuum cleaners and hairdryers can be.  There is a problem of course in setting good policy if you have 27 very diverse countries in a union all wanting to support their own particular needs and if you have a central bureaucracy intent on pursuing a united states of Europe. For example Germany does not have any nuclear plants, because to win votes/election German politicians promised not to have any, resulting in being dependant on Comrade Putin as the vast amount of gas they use comes from Russia, thereby having to dance to his tune.  I fully expect renewables to form the main part of electricity required in the future, nuclear will play a part (although it is more likely to be small plants rather than huge ones) even though it is expensive, in order to keep the lights on. 
 
Then the CAP, the Common Agricultural Policy, it actually still continues to distort farming badly, but nothing can be done about it because of votes in France and Germany.
 
The Eurozone is failing and may well dissolve. It has seriously damaged Greece, Spain and Italy (plus France though Macron will not admit it). The Eurozone effect together with the migration policy plus free movement within the EU has been behind the surge in support for right wing parties in many countries, and politics has become very toxic (in the UK the BREXIT question is poisonous).
 
In the UK, leavers have argued that having free movement has reduced wages. I think there are good and bad issues to consider on this. If you have ever been in hospital lately you will see how many dedicated EU medics are keeping the NHS going. On the other hand ‘The Boys of the Black Stuff’ brickies etc no longer work in London cos they are undercut by lots of trades who have come from East Europe. Below I mention globalisation, construction work and personal services eg hairdressing are jobs that cannot easily be expropriated abroad, but as Europeans move to the UK and take over these jobs? With agriculture I have never understood why east European migrant workers should work for very low wages… pay a decent wage and UK people would work.
 
 
Back in the 70 many leftists were against the Common Market (including Corbyn) because it was primarily seen as an organisation that would help large companies. It does. That is why you should always take anything the CBI says with a huge pinch of salt, as they have a vested interest in keeping the status quo going. I used to spend most of my working life producing forecasts or checking others who produced them, the only point that can be made is 90% were wrong. I am quite amused that the remoaners, in true chicken little manner keep pushing project fear that gets more discredited with every one that is issued. For example, there was a prediction that if the referendum went the way of leave, then there would be immediate economic consequences, if that is the case it has been the opposite as the UK has high employment and wages are starting to rise.  
 
In practical terms the EU favouring big business makes any national government wanting to mitigate the effects of globalisation/Western deindustrialisation a non-starter. For the UK by and large the EU has been supportive of London continuing to grow as a financial centre to counter balance New York’s dominance. However as London has grown the UK economy has become very unbalanced as the industrialised regions have been devastated by globalisation (that is production moving to other countries who pay very little wages and have poor working conditions), so whether you are M&S wanting to produce clothing in the UK for sale in the UK, the competition kills your sales cos they sell a very similar product cheaper. Technology has also made big inroads into jobs, whether you used to work as a clerk in an accountancy office or in a bank or as sales assistant in a high street shop. One prediction that some are making atm is that AI (artificial intelligence) is going to have a similar effect on some jobs.  Certainly being part of the EU makes it harder for national and regional government to implement actions to mitigate the impact of globalisation and technology. London has escaped the worst of this and certainly our own government (especially) Thatcher were willing to go along with big business and the European project. The UK is an island that no longer builds ships or crews them and both the inshore and offshore fishing industry has been passed over to other European countries. I also would have though it politic for defence purposes to keep some steel production in the UK? It is amusing is it not to hear about the Northern Powerhouse, when billions are spent on cross rail but the railway line from Durham to Manchester airport (a big hub) is so poor.
 
I would not say that some pan European projects are not worth doing, for instance I have some knowledge of how Universities and their students can benefit from studying in different countries and having ease of sharing research. Also sharing intelligence about and having combined operations concerning ‘bad actors’ on security and crime issues is obviously a good aim. Whilst I am sure any funding to universities or Interpol from the EU is welcome. Both of these organisations would function better if they were left as independent entities and do not need the dead hand of a 27 country organisation and political interference from a bloated bureaucracy giving it direction and orders.
 
There will be problems divorcing from the EU, with trade and supply chains. However my fundamental understanding from business is that if you have a good product or service keenly priced it will sell.

What an excellent post Sunders, thank you for helping me to see that my vote to leave was the correct one.   like
In your opinion of course.

Silvers I think you may have just hit the problem on the head, if only we could have stopped people having opinions, or better still get us all to have the same opinion.

That's the problem with referendums., they ask us all for our opinion then all hell breaks out. A 60/40 or more and they, the establishment, may have gotten away with it but we instead got a very close vote and no matter what way it went is was sure to cause problems, and by how it has caused problems.

I know we sit on different sides of the vote so that makes me the winner, so why dont I feel like I have won anything?

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Post  Guest on 2019-02-07, 6:19 pm

I agree.

A second refererendum  would be equally divisive.

I feel a general election is needed.
That way we would hopefully have a govt with an overall majority to sort this mess out... whichever way.
We can not go on like this.

>
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Post  cyprussyd on 2019-02-07, 6:24 pm

Silvers wrote:I agree.

A second refererendum  would be equally divisive.

I feel a general election is needed.
That way we would hopefully have a govt with an overall majority to sort this mess out... whichever way.
We can not go on like this.

>
No we cant but it seems we are, the days are reducing, we see lots of talking but the plan seems to be shut your eyes, cross your fingers and hope for the best.

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Post  Guest on 2019-02-07, 6:42 pm

I used to be quite a news junkie and when I woke up in the morning, after checking on Sundermad of course, would switch on the Today programme on Radio 4. 

The BBC were asking why the Today programme was losing listeners, my reply (email) was Brexit... as it seems to be the only news item worth discussing  was endless talk about bloody Brexit, I have had my fill of it and no longer listen to the Today programme. I suggested they advertised that they were going to have 2 or 3 Brexit free days on Radio and TV... to see if that made a difference to audience figures.
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Post  Guest on 2019-02-07, 10:45 pm

like

yes I listen to that too!
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Post  Guest on 2019-02-08, 11:31 am

Silvers wrote:like

yes I listen to that too!

As usual now I did not listen to the Today programme this morning on the radio. However it appears some Cambridge woman economist, who is a remainer, took all her clothes off whilst being interviewed by John Humphries.. she had an anti Brexit slogan written across her breasts!

Any pics?
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Post  cyprussyd on 2019-02-08, 12:06 pm

sunderpitt wrote:
Silvers wrote:like

yes I listen to that too!

As usual now I did not listen to the Today programme this morning on the radio. However it appears some Cambridge woman economist, who is a remainer, took all her clothes off whilst being interviewed by John Humphries.. she had an anti Brexit slogan written across her breasts!

Any pics?
I got this one of the right tit

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Post  canary-dave on 2019-02-08, 12:14 pm

cyprussyd wrote:
sunderpitt wrote:
Silvers wrote:like

yes I listen to that too!

As usual now I did not listen to the Today programme this morning on the radio. However it appears some Cambridge woman economist, who is a remainer, took all her clothes off whilst being interviewed by John Humphries.. she had an anti Brexit slogan written across her breasts!

Any pics?
I got this one of the right tit

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lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!

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