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Lens gone

Post  cyprussyd on 2017-08-06, 8:49 am

The long anticipated sale of Jeremain Lens to Besiktas has finally been confirmed. The Dutchman leaves Sunderland for an undisclosed fee.



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The long anticipated sale of Jeremain Lens to Besiktas has finally been confirmed. The Dutchman leaves Sunderland for an undisclosed fee.
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Re: Lens gone

Post  cyprussyd on 2017-08-06, 8:50 am

Hopefully this will trigger MCcormack and at least one other this week

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Re: Lens gone

Post  Hieronymus on 2017-08-06, 10:15 am

"Undisclosed fee" means "peanuts" I expect, but at least now his wages are off the books so hopefully we can go for the target man we need.
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Re: Lens gone

Post  gil t azell on 2017-08-06, 11:09 am

Hieronymus wrote:"Undisclosed fee" means "peanuts" I expect, but at least now his wages are off the books so hopefully we can go for the target man we need.
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 Why do they not just say. It all comes out eventually when the books are examined and audited.
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Re: Lens gone

Post  cyprussyd on 2017-08-06, 11:22 am

gil t azell wrote:
Hieronymus wrote:"Undisclosed fee" means "peanuts" I expect, but at least now his wages are off the books so hopefully we can go for the target man we need.
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 Why do they not just say. It all comes out eventually when the books are examined and audited.
Embarrassment maybe.

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Re: Lens gone

Post  Silvers on 2017-08-06, 11:22 am

Perhaps SAFC don't want to alert other clubs about what we have received, so that they won't hold us to ransom over our 'targets' ..
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Re: Lens gone

Post  cyprussyd on 2017-08-06, 7:31 pm

Unsurprisingly, therefore, details of the transfer fee have been hard to come by. But Sunderland have downplayed reports in Turkey that the fee is just £4m, and is to be spread over two years. Either way, Lens is yet another player sold at a loss, and for much less than the £8m the Black Cats had hoped for this summer after his impressive performances on loan at Besiktas’ city rivals Fenerbahce last season.

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Jeremain Lens has joined Besiktas from Sunderland but the Black Cats say the terms are better than is being circulated in the Turkish media
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Re: Lens gone

Post  barrowmackem on 2017-08-06, 7:38 pm

good news this, hope Kone is next.

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Re: Lens gone

Post  Nostalgic on 2017-08-06, 8:54 pm

Who cares what the fee was?  He was never one of ours once Dick left and he had an attitude not good for harmony.

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Re: Lens gone

Post  cyprussyd on 2017-08-06, 9:24 pm

Nostalgic wrote:Who cares what the fee was?  He was never one of ours once Dick left and he had an attitude not good for harmony.
I think the fee is important because again we hear we are broke but continue to sell on the cheap and that hardly helps.

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Re: Lens gone

Post  paddocklad on 2017-08-06, 9:31 pm

You won't find out what the fee is because that would let us know how much money short is trousering away
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Re: Lens gone

Post  Nostalgic on 2017-08-06, 10:26 pm

cyprussyd wrote:
Nostalgic wrote:Who cares what the fee was?  He was never one of ours once Dick left and he had an attitude not good for harmony.
I think the fee is important because again we hear we are broke but continue to sell on the cheap and that hardly helps.
The window closes on 31 August so Besiktas had plenty of time to sit it out to force us to sell in desperation at the last minute. Undisclosed fee could have been at their or the players request.  Peanuts may not have been involved.

Twelve appearances in two seasons indicates, to me at least, he was not committed.

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Re: Lens gone

Post  lesmac on 2017-08-06, 10:43 pm

paddocklad wrote:You won't find out what the fee is because that would let us know how much money short is trousering away
Prove it?
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Re: Lens gone

Post  Hieronymus on 2017-08-07, 1:26 am

lesmac wrote:
paddocklad wrote:You won't find out what the fee is because that would let us know how much money short is trousering away
Prove it?
It is rumoured that Ellis Short is an investor/part owner of Security Benefit Corporation, a financial servces company based in the USA. This extract from last years accounts shows SAFC owes SBC £70m, at an interest rate of 7.5% plus LIBOR, all secured on the SOL and Academy and repayable by 27 August 2019 Shocked
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Furthermore SAFC also have a revolving credit facility with SBC, of £20m, also at 7.5% plus LIBOR.

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The accounts state, for year ending 31st July 2016, SAFC paid out £6,899,000 in interest (to SBC) and a further £1,227,000 'interest' was paid on "inter-company loans", which turns out to be a £20m 'interest free' loan by our old friends Drumaville. Who I always believed had been bought out by Ellis Short!
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We don't know how much of that first sum will be paid out to SBC investors, or if Short actually IS an investor. But why go to this company at all? I mean why not borrow from a bank in the UK or Europe? And of course the capital is still owed to SBC and their investors will get a chunk of it eventually. And what exactly is this 'interest' payment to Drumaville on a supposedly interest free loan?

So there is some evidence of something not quite rght although I admit it is not proof. Ellis Short is far too clever for such a conflict of interest to be public knowledge. Furthermore SBC is privately owned ( by Guggenheim Holdings) so it does not have to disclose its investors the way a stock market listed company might have to. But I think it is all very suspicious anyway. Evil or Very Mad

Here is the link to the accounts if anyone wants to review my investigation work!

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Re: Lens gone

Post  paddocklad on 2017-08-07, 8:34 am

Thank you H makes interesting reading and sort of backs up some comments on here , is this not to similar to what the Glazers have done at Man U
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Re: Lens gone

Post  Black Cat Kiwi on 2017-08-07, 8:36 am

They'll always be naysayers, so tell them to look up the current loan rates at Barclays or the BoE rates to July posted 4 days ago should they doubt you H.  

BTW. Isn't Louis Paletta a rather resplendent individual. 

Ps. If you ever have time for a stroll might I suggest Wigmore St is rather nice at this time of year Wink

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Re: Lens gone

Post  lesmac on 2017-08-07, 2:25 pm

Hieronymus wrote:
lesmac wrote:
paddocklad wrote:You won't find out what the fee is because that would let us know how much money short is trousering away
Prove it?
It is rumoured that Ellis Short is an investor/part owner of Security Benefit Corporation, a financial servces company based in the USA. This extract from last years accounts shows SAFC owes SBC £70m, at an interest rate of 7.5% plus LIBOR, all secured on the SOL and Academy and repayable by 27 August 2019 Shocked
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Furthermore SAFC also have a revolving credit facility with SBC, of £20m, also at 7.5% plus LIBOR.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

The accounts state, for year ending 31st July 2016, SAFC paid out £6,899,000 in interest (to SBC) and a further £1,227,000 'interest' was paid on "inter-company loans", which turns out to be a £20m 'interest free' loan by our old friends Drumaville. Who I always believed had been bought out by Ellis Short!
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We don't know how much of that first sum will be paid out to SBC investors, or if Short actually IS an investor. But why go to this company at all? I mean why not borrow from a bank in the UK or Europe? And of course the capital is still owed to SBC and their investors will get a chunk of it eventually. And what exactly is this 'interest' payment to Drumaville on a supposedly interest free loan?

So there is some evidence of something not quite rght although I admit it is not proof. Ellis Short is far too clever for such a conflict of interest to be public knowledge. Furthermore SBC is privately owned ( by Guggenheim Holdings) so it does not have to disclose its investors the way a stock market listed company might have to. But I think it is all very suspicious anyway. Evil or Very Mad

Here is the link to the accounts if anyone wants to review my investigation work!

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H Thanks for the research into the clubs finances, they make interesting reading.

I agree with the general view on the forum that Short has not been a good owner having done very little in recent years to finance the purchase of new players, unlike the early days when Keane, Bruce and O'Neil were given decent transfer budgets. His choice of advisers and some managers has also left a lot to be desired. The financial information you have provided is interesting but t does not prove that Short has been "trousering" money as suggested by paddocklad. The club is totally owned by Short who has spent a fair bit of the billions that he is worth during his time at SAFC. It is his business not ours. We are supporters not shareholders and I feel that we should support the club from the terraces in the way that we used to back in the days of Peter Reid at Roker Park and the early days of SOL. The supporters were reckoned to be worth an extra man to Sunderland so let's all try to create that atmosphere again. It will be much more productive that bad mouthing owners and some players.
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Re: Lens gone

Post  Silvers on 2017-08-07, 3:22 pm

Of course we have to support the club, and we will.

That will not change.

The point about the finances is that the club are paying an extortionate rate of interest  - millions of pounds a year - to a (none- uk) finance company owned by Short himself - a veritable cash-cow.

If that is not a conflict of interests I don't know what is...

I imagine any new owner (probably within the coming 12 months)  would re-finance this,  and closer to home.
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Re: Lens gone

Post  cyprussyd on 2017-08-07, 3:41 pm

silvers wrote:Of course we have to support the club, and we will.

That will not change.

The point about the finances is that the club are paying an extortionate rate of interest  - millions of pounds a year - to a (none- uk) finance company owned by Short himself - a veritable cash-cow.

If that is not a conflict of interests I don't know what is...

I imagine any new owner (probably within the coming 12 months)  would re-finance this,  and closer to home.
With respect supporting the club is going and backing the team on the pitch, something many have said they wont do while Short is there.

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Re: Lens gone

Post  Hieronymus on 2017-08-07, 6:38 pm

cyprussyd wrote:
silvers wrote:Of course we have to support the club, and we will.

That will not change.

The point about the finances is that the club are paying an extortionate rate of interest  - millions of pounds a year - to a (none- uk) finance company owned by Short himself - a veritable cash-cow.

If that is not a conflict of interests I don't know what is...

I imagine any new owner (probably within the coming 12 months)  would re-finance this,  and closer to home.
With respect supporting the club is going and backing the team on the pitch, something many have said they wont do while Short is there.
With respect I disagree,  but not going to get into the argument over criteria for calling yourself a supporter or not.
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Re: Lens gone

Post  cyprussyd on 2017-08-07, 6:44 pm

Hieronymus wrote:
cyprussyd wrote:
silvers wrote:Of course we have to support the club, and we will.

That will not change.

The point about the finances is that the club are paying an extortionate rate of interest  - millions of pounds a year - to a (none- uk) finance company owned by Short himself - a veritable cash-cow.

If that is not a conflict of interests I don't know what is...

I imagine any new owner (probably within the coming 12 months)  would re-finance this,  and closer to home.
With respect supporting the club is going and backing the team on the pitch, something many have said they wont do while Short is there.
With respect I disagree,  but not going to get into the argument over criteria for calling yourself a supporter or not.
No need for an argument H, a valid debate in what makes a fan and what makes a supporter, neither are to be disrespected.

For years I didn't go to live games or even listen to them, work and family took priority, in those days I would call myself a fan. Now I go to all home games and give my support but I still take second place, IMO, behind the true supporters who support home and away.

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Re: Lens gone

Post  Argus on 2017-08-07, 7:29 pm

cyprussyd wrote:With respect supporting the club is going and backing the team on the pitch, something many have said they wont do while Short is there.

I usually share your views/opinions Syd, but on this occasion I must differ.

If SAFC 'supporters' were measured by attendance only, then we would boast of a mere 30,000 of them, when in fact there are probably hundreds of thousands both here and abroad.

Attending the Stadium of Light is not the single criteria for 'supportership' as I can testify.

After 40+ years I stopped attending games after a 'cock-up' over my seat and I've not been back since but you can be assured I don't feel alienated at all. I still feel the excitement of match day, the pain of defeat and the (occasional) thrill of a win with all the other highs and lows thrown in during the week.

No, being a supporter is more than just going to the match, it's an emotional tie that is difficult - if not impossible - to break and I often wish my parents had explained just how addictive it would become and I may have avoided 60 years of pure anguish.

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Re: Lens gone

Post  cyprussyd on 2017-08-07, 7:33 pm

@JHunterChron 
As for the Lens deal, my understanding is there is no 'option' to buy - deal simply becomes permanent next summer for the extra cash. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Re: Lens gone

Post  cyprussyd on 2017-08-07, 7:36 pm

Argus wrote:
cyprussyd wrote:With respect supporting the club is going and backing the team on the pitch, something many have said they wont do while Short is there.

I usually share your views/opinions Syd, but on this occasion I must differ.

If SAFC 'supporters' were measured by attendance only, then we would boast of a mere 30,000 of them, when in fact there are probably hundreds of thousands both here and abroad.

Attending the Stadium of Light is not the single criteria for 'supportership' as I can testify.

After 40+ years I stopped attending games after a 'cock-up' over my seat and I've not been back since but you can be assured I don't feel alienated at all. I still feel the excitement of match day, the pain of defeat and the (occasional) thrill of a win with all the other highs and lows thrown in during the week.

No, being a supporter is more than just going to the match, it's an emotional tie that is difficult - if not impossible - to break and I often wish my parents had explained just how addictive it would become and I may have avoided 60 years of pure anguish.
And its good to have different views. I don't see any superiority between fans and supporters and certainly no difference in pain or joy, more pain sadly.
And I accept your definition but when I didn't go I certainly felt more a fan than supporter, maybe a play on words or maybe just a difference of view.

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Re: Lens gone

Post  sunderpitt on 2017-08-07, 7:46 pm

silvers wrote:Of course we have to support the club, and we will.

That will not change.

The point about the finances is that the club are paying an extortionate rate of interest  - millions of pounds a year - to a (none- uk) finance company owned by Short himself - a veritable cash-cow.

If that is not a conflict of interests I don't know what is...

I imagine any new owner (probably within the coming 12 months)  would re-finance this,  and closer to home.

If Grayson is not Gandalf in disguise he needs funds to bring in quality...othetwise the squad is left high and dry and packed with perhaps hard-working but lacking talent players
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Re: Lens gone

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