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Cattermole

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Re: Cattermole

Post  Black Cat Kiwi on 2017-05-07, 3:07 am

Hieronymus wrote:
Black Cat Kiwi wrote:
Summed up perfectly about Catts & JoS. 
As Kipper says further down he's devides opinion......that he does. He's a tough bastard that's for sure but all bullies meet their match one day! I just hope it's before he's see's off another promising threat
Giaccherini? Wink
I'd forgotten about that.......Anyhow everyone said he was a injured-proned lightweight, unsuitable for the rigors of English football whom was only good enough to play for Italy in the last Euro's and so SAFC dodged a bullet sine they wouldn't know how to play TikiItalia!

Ps. No that wasn't whom I was referring to but to a number whom have suffered the wrath of more senior players over the past 5 years, epitomized by the culture that was prevalent over the time.

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Re: Cattermole

Post  Hieronymus on 2017-05-07, 10:20 am

Black Cat Kiwi wrote:
Hieronymus wrote:
Black Cat Kiwi wrote:
Summed up perfectly about Catts & JoS. 
As Kipper says further down he's devides opinion......that he does. He's a tough bastard that's for sure but all bullies meet their match one day! I just hope it's before he's see's off another promising threat
Giaccherini? Wink
I'd forgotten about that.......Anyhow everyone said he was a injured-proned lightweight, unsuitable for the rigors of English football whom was only good enough to play for Italy in the last Euro's and so SAFC dodged a bullet sine they wouldn't know how to play TikiItalia!

Ps. No that wasn't whom I was referring to but to a number whom have suffered the wrath of more senior players over the past 5 years, epitomized by the culture that was prevalent over the time.
You seem to know more about this than any of us Kiwi, and I believe you, so although I have always rated Cattermole for his leadership and commitment, if that translates to bullying other players off the field then I want rid. Bullying is despicable in my view as no one deserves to go to their place of work and be humiliated or mentally cruscified by more senior staff. That works for football as well as anywhere in life.

From what I saw on the highlights last night, young Honeyman seemed committed and could be seen geeing eveyone up on the pitch, so maybe he will be a good long term replacement. If so let's hope his leadership style develops into the firm, but respectful and supportive kind, not humiliating and destructive.
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Re: Cattermole

Post  cyprussyd on 2017-05-07, 10:43 am

Hieronymus wrote:
Black Cat Kiwi wrote:
Hieronymus wrote:
Black Cat Kiwi wrote:
Summed up perfectly about Catts & JoS. 
As Kipper says further down he's devides opinion......that he does. He's a tough bastard that's for sure but all bullies meet their match one day! I just hope it's before he's see's off another promising threat
Giaccherini? Wink
I'd forgotten about that.......Anyhow everyone said he was a injured-proned lightweight, unsuitable for the rigors of English football whom was only good enough to play for Italy in the last Euro's and so SAFC dodged a bullet sine they wouldn't know how to play TikiItalia!

Ps. No that wasn't whom I was referring to but to a number whom have suffered the wrath of more senior players over the past 5 years, epitomized by the culture that was prevalent over the time.
You seem to know more about this than any of us Kiwi, and I believe you, so although I have always rated Cattermole for his leadership and commitment, if that translates to bullying other players off the field then I want rid. Bullying is despicable in my view as no one deserves to go to their place of work and be humiliated or mentally cruscified by more senior staff. That works for football as well as anywhere in life.

From what I saw on the highlights last night, young Honeyman seemed committed and could be seen geeing eveyone up on the pitch, so maybe he will be a good long term replacement. If so let's hope his leadership style develops into the firm, but respectful and supportive kind, not humiliating and destructive.
Bullying is indeed despicable but I'm afraid I wont be accusing Cattermole without evidence and for me gossip on an internet forum is not evidence, sorry.

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Re: Cattermole

Post  Hieronymus on 2017-05-07, 11:04 am

cyprussyd wrote:
Hieronymus wrote:
Black Cat Kiwi wrote:
Hieronymus wrote:
Black Cat Kiwi wrote:
Summed up perfectly about Catts & JoS. 
As Kipper says further down he's devides opinion......that he does. He's a tough bastard that's for sure but all bullies meet their match one day! I just hope it's before he's see's off another promising threat
Giaccherini? Wink
I'd forgotten about that.......Anyhow everyone said he was a injured-proned lightweight, unsuitable for the rigors of English football whom was only good enough to play for Italy in the last Euro's and so SAFC dodged a bullet sine they wouldn't know how to play TikiItalia!

Ps. No that wasn't whom I was referring to but to a number whom have suffered the wrath of more senior players over the past 5 years, epitomized by the culture that was prevalent over the time.
You seem to know more about this than any of us Kiwi, and I believe you, so although I have always rated Cattermole for his leadership and commitment, if that translates to bullying other players off the field then I want rid. Bullying is despicable in my view as no one deserves to go to their place of work and be humiliated or mentally cruscified by more senior staff. That works for football as well as anywhere in life.

From what I saw on the highlights last night, young Honeyman seemed committed and could be seen geeing eveyone up on the pitch, so maybe he will be a good long term replacement. If so let's hope his leadership style develops into the firm, but respectful and supportive kind, not humiliating and destructive.
Bullying is indeed despicable but I'm afraid I wont be accusing Cattermole without evidence and for me gossip on an internet forum is not evidence, sorry.
I agree there is no hard evidence, but if I recall correctly Kiwi works iin football circles in Italy and other parts of Europe as well as New Zealand so he may well have 'evidence' that he cannot disclose here, hence why I believe him.

We can all agree there has been much talk of a 'rotten core' at SAFC, by more than one manager, for quite a few years now. It may not be a coincidence that those conversations began soon after Cattermole's (plus one or two others) arrival at the club.
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Re: Cattermole

Post  silvers on 2017-05-07, 11:07 am

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As a person he appears to be a yob .. so his social skills in a dressing room are probably limited...

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Re: Cattermole

Post  cyprussyd on 2017-05-07, 11:10 am

Hieronymus wrote:
cyprussyd wrote:
Hieronymus wrote:
Black Cat Kiwi wrote:
Hieronymus wrote:
Black Cat Kiwi wrote:
Summed up perfectly about Catts & JoS. 
As Kipper says further down he's devides opinion......that he does. He's a tough bastard that's for sure but all bullies meet their match one day! I just hope it's before he's see's off another promising threat
Giaccherini? Wink
I'd forgotten about that.......Anyhow everyone said he was a injured-proned lightweight, unsuitable for the rigors of English football whom was only good enough to play for Italy in the last Euro's and so SAFC dodged a bullet sine they wouldn't know how to play TikiItalia!

Ps. No that wasn't whom I was referring to but to a number whom have suffered the wrath of more senior players over the past 5 years, epitomized by the culture that was prevalent over the time.
You seem to know more about this than any of us Kiwi, and I believe you, so although I have always rated Cattermole for his leadership and commitment, if that translates to bullying other players off the field then I want rid. Bullying is despicable in my view as no one deserves to go to their place of work and be humiliated or mentally cruscified by more senior staff. That works for football as well as anywhere in life.

From what I saw on the highlights last night, young Honeyman seemed committed and could be seen geeing eveyone up on the pitch, so maybe he will be a good long term replacement. If so let's hope his leadership style develops into the firm, but respectful and supportive kind, not humiliating and destructive.
Bullying is indeed despicable but I'm afraid I wont be accusing Cattermole without evidence and for me gossip on an internet forum is not evidence, sorry.
I agree there is no hard evidence, but if I recall correctly Kiwi works iin football circles in Italy and other parts of Europe as well as New Zealand so he may well have 'evidence' that he cannot disclose here, hence why I believe him.

We can all agree there has been much talk of a 'rotten core' at SAFC, by more than one manager, for quite a few years now. It may not be a coincidence that those conversations began soon after Cattermole's (plus one or two others) arrival at the club.
It may well be true and I don't doubt it's what Kiwi has been told and he believes but, who told him? How many players have complained about it? Over the years I have heard that the rotten core is a drink culture, gambling culture and now a bullying culture. And the bully group are so strong they have beaten,

A number of players
Di Canio
O'Neil
Poyet
Quinn
and now it seems Moyes

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Re: Cattermole

Post  talcnturnip on 2017-05-07, 11:36 am

Sure there is something there mate far too many players still there who have seen off managers and some decent players as well. Not sure it's a bullying culture as that would be an HR and PR nightmare for the club, although thinking about it it's what we do best, nightmares.

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Re: Cattermole

Post  Black Cat Kiwi on 2017-05-07, 10:23 pm

cyprussyd wrote:It may well be true and I don't doubt it's what Kiwi has been told and he believes but, who told him? How many players have complained about it? Over the years I have heard that the rotten core is a drink culture, gambling culture and now a bullying culture. And the bully group are so strong they have beaten, A number of players Di Canio O'Neil Poyet Quinn
and now it seems Moyes

The pressure to conform by some senior players, both past and present to whats become the norm would be a better phrase to use than bully as bully to me, implies violence of which I've never heard anything of. 

The encouraging of new players to drink, gamble and stay out late the day before traveling is considered by most professionals in sport, not to be the best of team building exercise's available and so should be frowned upon by so called seasoned professionals rather than the condoning of it, one would have thought by participation. 

SAFC needs a strong leadership group whom accept nothing less than the pursuit of excellence to be the very best they can, regardless of which level they play at. Mediocrity has prevailed for far to long, collectively resulting in far to many young players not being able to step up to the next level. New arrivals likewise need to be integrated into a positive system so they to can showcase their skill for which they were signed rather than floundering before being sold for far less than they were bought having not been able to fully integrate.

Moye's confidence looks shell-shocked but he's no fool. 
I truly hope he receives the support so sorely missing for his predecessors to allow him to create an environment that reflects upon the hard working culture of Sunderland by building an empire from the base up and Short comes out publicly stating SAFC is not for sale.... drunken

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Re: Cattermole

Post  cyprussyd on 2017-05-07, 10:31 pm

Black Cat Kiwi wrote:
cyprussyd wrote:It may well be true and I don't doubt it's what Kiwi has been told and he believes but, who told him? How many players have complained about it? Over the years I have heard that the rotten core is a drink culture, gambling culture and now a bullying culture. And the bully group are so strong they have beaten, A number of players Di Canio O'Neil Poyet Quinn
and now it seems Moyes

The pressure to conform by some senior players, both past and present to whats become the norm would be a better phrase to use than bully as bully to me, implies violence of which I've never heard anything of. 

The encouraging of new players to drink, gamble and stay out late the day before traveling is considered by most professionals in sport, not to be the best of team building exercise's available and so should be frowned upon by so called seasoned professionals rather than the condoning of it, one would have thought by participation. 

SAFC needs a strong leadership group whom accept nothing less than the pursuit of excellence to be the very best they can, regardless of which level they play at. Mediocrity has prevailed for far to long, collectively resulting in far to many young players not being able to step up to the next level. New arrivals likewise need to be integrated into a positive system so they to can showcase their skill for which they were signed rather than floundering before being sold for far less than they were bought having not been able to fully integrate.

Moye's confidence looks shell-shocked but he's no fool. 
I truly hope he receives the support so sorely missing for his predecessors to allow him to create an environment that reflects upon the hard working culture of Sunderland by building an empire from the base up and Short comes out publicly stating SAFC is not for sale.... drunken
Now that I like

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Re: Cattermole

Post  Hieronymus on 2017-05-08, 10:55 am

Black Cat Kiwi wrote:
cyprussyd wrote:It may well be true and I don't doubt it's what Kiwi has been told and he believes but, who told him? How many players have complained about it? Over the years I have heard that the rotten core is a drink culture, gambling culture and now a bullying culture. And the bully group are so strong they have beaten, A number of players Di Canio O'Neil Poyet Quinn
and now it seems Moyes

The pressure to conform by some senior players, both past and present to whats become the norm would be a better phrase to use than bully as bully to me, implies violence of which I've never heard anything of. 

The encouraging of new players to drink, gamble and stay out late the day before traveling is considered by most professionals in sport, not to be the best of team building exercise's available and so should be frowned upon by so called seasoned professionals rather than the condoning of it, one would have thought by participation. 

SAFC needs a strong leadership group whom accept nothing less than the pursuit of excellence to be the very best they can, regardless of which level they play at. Mediocrity has prevailed for far to long, collectively resulting in far to many young players not being able to step up to the next level. New arrivals likewise need to be integrated into a positive system so they to can showcase their skill for which they were signed rather than floundering before being sold for far less than they were bought having not been able to fully integrate.

Moye's confidence looks shell-shocked but he's no fool. 
I truly hope he receives the support so sorely missing for his predecessors to allow him to create an environment that reflects upon the hard working culture of Sunderland by building an empire from the base up and Short comes out publicly stating SAFC is not for sale.... drunken
Good post and I agree. I never though the 'bullying' was physical stuff, just as you say pressure to conform.

Pressure to conform by group leaders has a powerful psychological influence on new members to any group. How many of you had to do stupid 'initiation' things when starting new jobs? I would call that bullying becuase it can be terrifying to many, and can harm their mental health, their confidence and their self-esteem for years, if not forever.

And it is not just lads "banter" or them being "poor little snowflakes" or whatever. Foreign players especially don't have the drinking and gambling culture many British players have, so it must be hard for them to cope if they get excluded because they refuse to conform.

When you think about it, it is actually noticeable that the players that have stayed the longest are the 'British' players and Seb Larsson, who was at Arsenal from young and probably being Scandinavian, was more susceptible to that culture anyway. The players seem to have managed to see off any talented 'foreigner' over last few years, for sure.

Yes, if Moyes stays he has some tough decisions to make. And I will think better of him if he makes them. But gven he has already said he wants more British style players I am not confident.
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Re: Cattermole

Post  Kipper on 2017-05-08, 12:13 pm

Hieronymus wrote:
Black Cat Kiwi wrote:
cyprussyd wrote:It may well be true and I don't doubt it's what Kiwi has been told and he believes but, who told him? How many players have complained about it? Over the years I have heard that the rotten core is a drink culture, gambling culture and now a bullying culture. And the bully group are so strong they have beaten, A number of players Di Canio O'Neil Poyet Quinn
and now it seems Moyes

The pressure to conform by some senior players, both past and present to whats become the norm would be a better phrase to use than bully as bully to me, implies violence of which I've never heard anything of. 

The encouraging of new players to drink, gamble and stay out late the day before traveling is considered by most professionals in sport, not to be the best of team building exercise's available and so should be frowned upon by so called seasoned professionals rather than the condoning of it, one would have thought by participation. 

SAFC needs a strong leadership group whom accept nothing less than the pursuit of excellence to be the very best they can, regardless of which level they play at. Mediocrity has prevailed for far to long, collectively resulting in far to many young players not being able to step up to the next level. New arrivals likewise need to be integrated into a positive system so they to can showcase their skill for which they were signed rather than floundering before being sold for far less than they were bought having not been able to fully integrate.

Moye's confidence looks shell-shocked but he's no fool. 
I truly hope he receives the support so sorely missing for his predecessors to allow him to create an environment that reflects upon the hard working culture of Sunderland by building an empire from the base up and Short comes out publicly stating SAFC is not for sale.... drunken
Good post and I agree. I never though the 'bullying' was physical stuff, just as you say pressure to conform.

Pressure to conform by group leaders has a powerful psychological influence on new members to any group. How many of you had to do stupid 'initiation' things when starting new jobs? I would call that bullying becuase it can be terrifying to many, and can harm their mental health, their confidence and their self-esteem for years, if not forever.

And it is not just lads "banter" or them being "poor little snowflakes" or whatever. Foreign players especially don't have the drinking and gambling culture many British players have, so it must be hard for them to cope if they get excluded because they refuse to conform.

When you think about it, it is actually noticeable that the players that have stayed the longest are the 'British' players and Seb Larsson, who was at Arsenal from young and probably being Scandinavian, was more susceptible to that culture anyway. The players seem to have managed to see off any talented 'foreigner' over last few years, for sure.

Yes, if Moyes stays he has some tough decisions to make. And I will think better of him if he makes them. But gven he has already said he wants more British style players I am not confident.


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