SunderMad
Why not join in with our small but perfectly formed community?

We are always looking for new members so sign up and join in, its free.

SOME PEOPLE SEEM TO HIT A SNAG WHEN TRYING TO REGISTER! NOT SURE WHY? IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM EMAIL ME AND I WILL SORT IT?
sundamad@aol.com
Sky Sports-SunderMad Exclusive.
2017/18

Latest topics
» I had a dream
Today at 2:26 pm by Hieronymus

» 4.50 Saturday and then
Today at 2:22 pm by cyprussyd

» Grayson out
Today at 2:00 pm by cyprussyd

» Brentford v Sunderland Match day thread
Today at 10:25 am by Silvers

» Mr H will be delighted
Today at 9:57 am by Hieronymus

» Some good news
Yesterday at 7:42 pm by cyprussyd

» Universal Credit
Yesterday at 7:30 pm by cyprussyd

» Sunderland v Bristol City/Bolton
Yesterday at 7:25 pm by sunderpitt

» word is
Yesterday at 6:51 pm by talcnturnip

» Corbyn in Brussels.
Yesterday at 6:18 pm by Silvers

Who is online?
In total there are 19 users online :: 2 Registered, 0 Hidden and 17 Guests :: 2 Bots

canary-dave, Hieronymus

[ View the whole list ]


Most users ever online was 328 on 2012-09-14, 11:57 am

Irish PM with Trumo

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Irish PM with Trumo

Post  cyprussyd on 2017-03-17, 1:48 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

________________________________________________________
          My glass is always half full and occasionally over flowing. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
avatar
cyprussyd
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 42436
Join date : 2012-07-31
Age : 69
Location : Durham

http://www.sunderlandmad.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Hieronymus on 2017-03-17, 5:14 pm

Excellent. So brilliant to see Trump put in his place.  Although using logic and reasoned argument with a man like Trump is a waste of breath it seems Rolling Eyes
avatar
Hieronymus
Admin Problem Solver
Admin Problem Solver

Posts : 8436
Join date : 2012-08-07
Age : 61

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Nostalgic on 2017-03-17, 8:35 pm

Been watching the various news programmes from US but that never got an airing this morning.

Nostalgic
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 3551
Join date : 2012-08-06
Age : 79
Location : Auckland NZ

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Billy D on 2017-03-18, 10:26 am

Can't understand all this anti Trump shite rhetoric tbh with you.
He told the population exactly what he was gonna do & he's wasted no time in cracking on with his pledges.
The American people democratically elected the man being under no illusions as to his intent.
Very refreshing imo - seeing a politician keep his promises whether you agree with them or not.

The trouble with democracy is certain people only want it when it go's their way.
Well I'm sorry, (infact, no, I'm not), but that's not the way it works.
It's got nothing to do with anyone bar the US citizens.
People whinging on about the outcome of an election like the anti Brexit moaners.
That's the result you twisty twats. Live with it or f*ck off. Not difficult is it?

I bet there's a few on here who would go against a strike ballot at work whichever way it went & do what they wanted anyway.
How very democratic.
No need to mention names, they know who they are.

Democracy is a good thing but you have to accept it when it go's against you.
That's how it works. Far too many Nicola f*cking Sturgeon's in this world.
A perfect example of someone who can't accept a result.
A bit like the EU.
France & the Netherlands rejected the Maastricht treaty & were asked to vote again.
The Irish rejected the Lisbon treaty & were asked, nay told, to vote again.
How come yes means yes but no doesn't mean no?
We'll just keep making you do it until we get the result we want.
All very democratic.

It's a bit like asking a woman if you can shag her.
She says no so you just keep hitting her until she says yes.
avatar
Billy D
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 2832
Join date : 2013-06-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  cyprussyd on 2017-03-18, 11:26 am

Billy D wrote:Can't understand all this anti Trump shite rhetoric tbh with you.
He told the population exactly what he was gonna do & he's wasted no time in cracking on with his pledges.
The American people democratically elected the man being under no illusions as to his intent.
Very refreshing imo - seeing a politician keep his promises whether you agree with them or not.

The trouble with democracy is certain people only want it when it go's their way.
Well I'm sorry, (infact, no, I'm not), but that's not the way it works.
It's got nothing to do with anyone bar the US citizens.
People whinging on about the outcome of an election like the anti Brexit moaners.
That's the result you twisty twats. Live with it or f*ck off. Not difficult is it?

I bet there's a few on here who would go against a strike ballot at work whichever way it went & do what they wanted anyway.
How very democratic.
No need to mention names, they know who they are.

Democracy is a good thing but you have to accept it when it go's against you.
That's how it works. Far too many Nicola f*cking Sturgeon's in this world.
A perfect example of someone who can't accept a result.
A bit like the EU.
France & the Netherlands rejected the Maastricht treaty & were asked to vote again.
The Irish rejected the Lisbon treaty & were asked, nay told, to vote again.
How come yes means yes but no doesn't mean no?
We'll just keep making you do it until we get the result we want.
All very democratic.

It's a bit like asking a woman if you can shag her.
She says no so you just keep hitting her until she says yes.
So why complain about Thatcher, a democratically elected PM, 3 times?
Or Corbyn, democratically elected labour leader, twice?
Or the present Tory government, democratically elected?

Surely a major part of democracy is to accept the outcome but voice concern if you have them.

________________________________________________________
          My glass is always half full and occasionally over flowing. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
avatar
cyprussyd
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 42436
Join date : 2012-07-31
Age : 69
Location : Durham

http://www.sunderlandmad.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Billy D on 2017-03-18, 11:35 am

cyprussyd wrote:
Billy D wrote:Can't understand all this anti Trump shite rhetoric tbh with you.
He told the population exactly what he was gonna do & he's wasted no time in cracking on with his pledges.
The American people democratically elected the man being under no illusions as to his intent.
Very refreshing imo - seeing a politician keep his promises whether you agree with them or not.

The trouble with democracy is certain people only want it when it go's their way.
Well I'm sorry, (infact, no, I'm not), but that's not the way it works.
It's got nothing to do with anyone bar the US citizens.
People whinging on about the outcome of an election like the anti Brexit moaners.
That's the result you twisty twats. Live with it or f*ck off. Not difficult is it?

I bet there's a few on here who would go against a strike ballot at work whichever way it went & do what they wanted anyway.
How very democratic.
No need to mention names, they know who they are.

Democracy is a good thing but you have to accept it when it go's against you.
That's how it works. Far too many Nicola f*cking Sturgeon's in this world.
A perfect example of someone who can't accept a result.
A bit like the EU.
France & the Netherlands rejected the Maastricht treaty & were asked to vote again.
The Irish rejected the Lisbon treaty & were asked, nay told, to vote again.
How come yes means yes but no doesn't mean no?
We'll just keep making you do it until we get the result we want.
All very democratic.

It's a bit like asking a woman if you can shag her.
She says no so you just keep hitting her until she says yes.
So why complain about Thatcher, a democratically elected PM, 3 times?
Or Corbyn, democratically elected labour leader, twice?
Or the present Tory government, democratically elected?

Surely a major part of democracy is to accept the outcome but voice concern if you have them.
Personally I hated Thatcher but yes, accepted it.
Intensely dislike Corbyn but yes, accept that too.
I have never complained about the present government & I think Mrs May is ok.
avatar
Billy D
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 2832
Join date : 2013-06-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Hieronymus on 2017-03-18, 11:56 am

Billy D wrote:Can't understand all this anti Trump shite rhetoric tbh with you.
He told the population exactly what he was gonna do & he's wasted no time in cracking on with his pledges.
The American people democratically elected the man being under no illusions as to his intent.
Very refreshing imo - seeing a politician keep his promises whether you agree with them or not.

The trouble with democracy is certain people only want it when it go's their way.
Well I'm sorry, (infact, no, I'm not), but that's not the way it works.
It's got nothing to do with anyone bar the US citizens.
People whinging on about the outcome of an election like the anti Brexit moaners.
That's the result you twisty twats. Live with it or f*ck off. Not difficult is it?

I bet there's a few on here who would go against a strike ballot at work whichever way it went & do what they wanted anyway.
How very democratic.
No need to mention names, they know who they are.

Democracy is a good thing but you have to accept it when it go's against you.
That's how it works. Far too many Nicola f*cking Sturgeon's in this world.
A perfect example of someone who can't accept a result.
A bit like the EU.
France & the Netherlands rejected the Maastricht treaty & were asked to vote again.
The Irish rejected the Lisbon treaty & were asked, nay told, to vote again.
How come yes means yes but no doesn't mean no?
We'll just keep making you do it until we get the result we want.
All very democratic.

It's a bit like asking a woman if you can shag her.
She says no so you just keep hitting her until she says yes.
A thought provoking post Billy although I am not sure your final analogy was needed!

I think it depends how you define democracy and what sort of government human beings should aspire to:


  • One person one vote in the USA means Hillary Clinton won by 3 million votes and should be President. But the USA electoral college system does not work that way so instead they get Trump.


  • One member one vote in the Labour Party was introduced by Ed Milliband, aimed at limiting the influence of unions in leadership contests. It was implemented in 2014, with the full support of the Blairite wing, and 86% support of the entire membership, resulting in Jeremy Corbyn being elected not once, but twice. Blairites and the media still won't accept his mandate and do all they can to undermine him every day.


  • One person one vote in the EU referendum also meant the UK got Brexit- but no one knew what they were voting for, due to lies all round by our 'respected' politicians and neither did we know how much it was going to cost. So should the 48% and more who who didn't vote for Brexit just sit on our hands if they feel this is the biggest mistake in a generation? Especially when our government has such a slim majority and a leader the British people have not elected?


For me democracy is about more than one person one vote - it is about having a system of government that serves all citizens, whether they vote or not. A system that makes the right decisions knowing the electorate has diverse needs and wants; also that some, maybe many, voters are uneducated, prejudiced, racist and xenophobic (allthough all governments should be working to ensure this is not the case). It is about having checks and balances so that the democratic process provides the greatest good for the greatest number, yet not ignoring minor interests.

In November democracy in the USA, fuelled by misinformation and a press that have the interests of big business and very powerful lobbies at heart, fell far short of providing the secure government that US and world citizens need. That is why many leaders and citizens of countries outside the USA, and many citizens within it, are railing against Trump. Because he represents all that is rotten in the modern world, where a rich white man, who inherited his place in society, who is a racist and sexist boor and who generally behaves like an over-indulged three year old, bought his way to the Presidency.

Yes, some people were so devoid of hope that they needed to believe his promises, having been unforgiveably ignored by 'proper' politicians for years. I understand that, but Trump's policies will not make their lives better. Instead their President is an establishment figure-head and a threat to the stability of their country and the entire world. Just one example is his 'people' already talking about escalating conflict with North Korea. Like adolescents they are creating a pissing contest between two nuclear nations that could actuallly destroy everyone on the planet!

So if I, and others far more qualified than I, like Enda Kenny, care to show Trump up as the moron he is, it is because I want a better world for my children and grandchildren than the one wth him as the 'Leader of the Free World'. In fact if Trump represents the success of 'democracy' then heaven help us all Crying or Very sad


(PS Thanks for posting this Billy, as I have had a good hour writing my reply and have not had time to think about the stress awaiting us from 3pm! Laughing )
avatar
Hieronymus
Admin Problem Solver
Admin Problem Solver

Posts : 8436
Join date : 2012-08-07
Age : 61

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Billy D on 2017-03-18, 12:36 pm

Hieronymus wrote:
Billy D wrote:Can't understand all this anti Trump shite rhetoric tbh with you.
He told the population exactly what he was gonna do & he's wasted no time in cracking on with his pledges.
The American people democratically elected the man being under no illusions as to his intent.
Very refreshing imo - seeing a politician keep his promises whether you agree with them or not.

The trouble with democracy is certain people only want it when it go's their way.
Well I'm sorry, (infact, no, I'm not), but that's not the way it works.
It's got nothing to do with anyone bar the US citizens.
People whinging on about the outcome of an election like the anti Brexit moaners.
That's the result you twisty twats. Live with it or f*ck off. Not difficult is it?

I bet there's a few on here who would go against a strike ballot at work whichever way it went & do what they wanted anyway.
How very democratic.
No need to mention names, they know who they are.

Democracy is a good thing but you have to accept it when it go's against you.
That's how it works. Far too many Nicola f*cking Sturgeon's in this world.
A perfect example of someone who can't accept a result.
A bit like the EU.
France & the Netherlands rejected the Maastricht treaty & were asked to vote again.
The Irish rejected the Lisbon treaty & were asked, nay told, to vote again.
How come yes means yes but no doesn't mean no?
We'll just keep making you do it until we get the result we want.
All very democratic.

It's a bit like asking a woman if you can shag her.
She says no so you just keep hitting her until she says yes.
A thought provoking post Billy although I am not sure your final analogy was needed!

I think it depends how you define democracy and what sort of government human beings should aspire to:


  • One person one vote in the USA means Hillary Clinton won by 3 million votes and should be President. But the USA electoral college system does not work that way so instead they get Trump.


  • One member one vote in the Labour Party was introduced by Ed Milliband, aimed at limiting the influence of unions in leadership contests. It was implemented in 2014, with the full support of the Blairite wing, and 86% support of the entire membership, resulting in Jeremy Corbyn being elected not once, but twice. Blairites and the media still won't accept his mandate and do all they can to undermine him every day.


  • One person one vote in the EU referendum also meant the UK got Brexit- but no one knew what they were voting for, due to lies all round by our 'respected' politicians and neither did we know how much it was going to cost. So should the 48% and more who who didn't vote for Brexit just sit on our hands if they feel this is the biggest mistake in a generation? Especially when our government has such a slim majority and a leader the British people have not elected?


For me democracy is about more than one person one vote - it is about having a system of government that serves all citizens, whether they vote or not. A system that makes the right decisions knowing the electorate has diverse needs and wants; also that some, maybe many, voters are uneducated, prejudiced, racist and xenophobic (allthough all governments should be working to ensure this is not the case). It is about having checks and balances so that the democratic process provides the greatest good for the greatest number, yet not ignoring minor interests.

In November democracy in the USA, fuelled by misinformation and a press that have the interests of big business and very powerful lobbies at heart, fell far short of providing the secure government that US and world citizens need. That is why many leaders and citizens of countries outside the USA, and many citizens within it, are railing against Trump. Because he represents all that is rotten in the modern world, where a rich white man, who inherited his place in society, who is a racist and sexist boor and who generally behaves like an over-indulged three year old, bought his way to the Presidency.

Yes, some people were so devoid of hope that they needed to believe his promises, having been unforgiveably ignored by 'proper' politicians for years. I understand that, but Trump's policies will not make their lives better. Instead their President is an establishment figure-head and a threat to the stability of their country and the entire world. Just one example is his 'people' already talking about escalating conflict with North Korea. Like adolescents they are creating a pissing contest between two nuclear nations that could actuallly destroy everyone on the planet!

So if I, and others far more qualified than I, like Enda Kenny, care to show Trump up as the moron he is, it is because I want a better world for my children and grandchildren than the one wth him as the 'Leader of the Free World'. In fact if Trump represents the success of 'democracy' then heaven help us all Crying or Very sad


(PS Thanks for posting this Billy, as I have had a good hour writing my reply and have not had time to think about the stress awaiting us from 3pm! Laughing )
Well I never said I agree with Trump's policies but as far as I can see he's putting the American people first which is the way it should be imo. f*ck the rest of the world, look after your own first.
A lot of US folk have lost their jobs due to cheap imports & those jobs aint coming back H.
Ordinary people, family men with mortgages & kids to feed.
Do you really think they give a toss about somebody in Chad, Ethiopia, Bangladesh or Syria?

As for Brexit, I knew exactly what I was voting for.
An escape route from the most corrupt organisation since the old East Germany.
Even the Politburo in the Soviet Union ha more credibility than them.
Ran by unelected bureaucrats who thrive on leeching.

I like you H. I could debate this topic with you all day. Smile
avatar
Billy D
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 2832
Join date : 2013-06-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Hieronymus on 2017-03-18, 1:18 pm

Billy D wrote:
Hieronymus wrote:
Billy D wrote:Can't understand all this anti Trump shite rhetoric tbh with you.
He told the population exactly what he was gonna do & he's wasted no time in cracking on with his pledges.
The American people democratically elected the man being under no illusions as to his intent.
Very refreshing imo - seeing a politician keep his promises whether you agree with them or not.

The trouble with democracy is certain people only want it when it go's their way.
Well I'm sorry, (infact, no, I'm not), but that's not the way it works.
It's got nothing to do with anyone bar the US citizens.
People whinging on about the outcome of an election like the anti Brexit moaners.
That's the result you twisty twats. Live with it or f*ck off. Not difficult is it?

I bet there's a few on here who would go against a strike ballot at work whichever way it went & do what they wanted anyway.
How very democratic.
No need to mention names, they know who they are.

Democracy is a good thing but you have to accept it when it go's against you.
That's how it works. Far too many Nicola f*cking Sturgeon's in this world.
A perfect example of someone who can't accept a result.
A bit like the EU.
France & the Netherlands rejected the Maastricht treaty & were asked to vote again.
The Irish rejected the Lisbon treaty & were asked, nay told, to vote again.
How come yes means yes but no doesn't mean no?
We'll just keep making you do it until we get the result we want.
All very democratic.

It's a bit like asking a woman if you can shag her.
She says no so you just keep hitting her until she says yes.
A thought provoking post Billy although I am not sure your final analogy was needed!

I think it depends how you define democracy and what sort of government human beings should aspire to:


  • One person one vote in the USA means Hillary Clinton won by 3 million votes and should be President. But the USA electoral college system does not work that way so instead they get Trump.


  • One member one vote in the Labour Party was introduced by Ed Milliband, aimed at limiting the influence of unions in leadership contests. It was implemented in 2014, with the full support of the Blairite wing, and 86% support of the entire membership, resulting in Jeremy Corbyn being elected not once, but twice. Blairites and the media still won't accept his mandate and do all they can to undermine him every day.


  • One person one vote in the EU referendum also meant the UK got Brexit- but no one knew what they were voting for, due to lies all round by our 'respected' politicians and neither did we know how much it was going to cost. So should the 48% and more who who didn't vote for Brexit just sit on our hands if they feel this is the biggest mistake in a generation? Especially when our government has such a slim majority and a leader the British people have not elected?


For me democracy is about more than one person one vote - it is about having a system of government that serves all citizens, whether they vote or not. A system that makes the right decisions knowing the electorate has diverse needs and wants; also that some, maybe many, voters are uneducated, prejudiced, racist and xenophobic (allthough all governments should be working to ensure this is not the case). It is about having checks and balances so that the democratic process provides the greatest good for the greatest number, yet not ignoring minor interests.

In November democracy in the USA, fuelled by misinformation and a press that have the interests of big business and very powerful lobbies at heart, fell far short of providing the secure government that US and world citizens need. That is why many leaders and citizens of countries outside the USA, and many citizens within it, are railing against Trump. Because he represents all that is rotten in the modern world, where a rich white man, who inherited his place in society, who is a racist and sexist boor and who generally behaves like an over-indulged three year old, bought his way to the Presidency.

Yes, some people were so devoid of hope that they needed to believe his promises, having been unforgiveably ignored by 'proper' politicians for years. I understand that, but Trump's policies will not make their lives better. Instead their President is an establishment figure-head and a threat to the stability of their country and the entire world. Just one example is his 'people' already talking about escalating conflict with North Korea. Like adolescents they are creating a pissing contest between two nuclear nations that could actuallly destroy everyone on the planet!

So if I, and others far more qualified than I, like Enda Kenny, care to show Trump up as the moron he is, it is because I want a better world for my children and grandchildren than the one wth him as the 'Leader of the Free World'. In fact if Trump represents the success of 'democracy' then heaven help us all Crying or Very sad


(PS Thanks for posting this Billy, as I have had a good hour writing my reply and have not had time to think about the stress awaiting us from 3pm! Laughing )
Well I never said I agree with Trump's policies but as far as I can see he's putting the American people first which is the way it should be imo. f*ck the rest of the world, look after your own first.
A lot of US folk have lost their jobs due to cheap imports & those jobs aint coming back H.
Ordinary people, family men with mortgages & kids to feed.
Do you really think they give a toss about somebody in Chad, Ethiopia, Bangladesh or Syria?

As for Brexit, I knew exactly what I was voting for.
An escape route from the most corrupt organisation since the old East Germany.
Even the Politburo in the Soviet Union ha more credibility than them.
Ran by unelected bureaucrats who thrive on leeching.

I like you H. I could debate this topic with you all day. Smile
That is the point I think Billy, much as we may disagree on how we got here, you thought the EU thing through and came to a decision based on a rationale that made sense to you. That is to be respected but sadly it seems many people did not have the capacity to do that. Many just believed the lies from a biased media, and politicians following their own agenda, and made their vote on emotion and not logic. Personally, although I too think the EU is a damaged institution in serious need of reform, I decided I wanted the UK to Remain as I believe countries are stronger when they work together.

But these differences in our opinions don't mean either of us is wrong or right, or bad or good and the discussion should never become personal. In any healthy and truly democratic society people with all viewpoints have to be engaged in the debate to find the best solutions to the many problems we face, in our own country and across the world. In my experince the new breed of politicians actually don't want voters to think or participate, because we might upset their gravy train!

I guess I just think that by aspiring to creating a more cooperative and less confrontational world we WOULD be looking after our own interests as a country as well. It just seems to me that all leaders and elected (and unelected!) representatives need to see the wider picture that, unless we have a safe and secure world to live in, protectionist policies are not worth a hill of beans.

(There's another hour gone Very Happy)
avatar
Hieronymus
Admin Problem Solver
Admin Problem Solver

Posts : 8436
Join date : 2012-08-07
Age : 61

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Billy D on 2017-03-18, 1:57 pm

Hieronymus wrote:
Billy D wrote:
Hieronymus wrote:
Billy D wrote:Can't understand all this anti Trump shite rhetoric tbh with you.
He told the population exactly what he was gonna do & he's wasted no time in cracking on with his pledges.
The American people democratically elected the man being under no illusions as to his intent.
Very refreshing imo - seeing a politician keep his promises whether you agree with them or not.

The trouble with democracy is certain people only want it when it go's their way.
Well I'm sorry, (infact, no, I'm not), but that's not the way it works.
It's got nothing to do with anyone bar the US citizens.
People whinging on about the outcome of an election like the anti Brexit moaners.
That's the result you twisty twats. Live with it or f*ck off. Not difficult is it?

I bet there's a few on here who would go against a strike ballot at work whichever way it went & do what they wanted anyway.
How very democratic.
No need to mention names, they know who they are.

Democracy is a good thing but you have to accept it when it go's against you.
That's how it works. Far too many Nicola f*cking Sturgeon's in this world.
A perfect example of someone who can't accept a result.
A bit like the EU.
France & the Netherlands rejected the Maastricht treaty & were asked to vote again.
The Irish rejected the Lisbon treaty & were asked, nay told, to vote again.
How come yes means yes but no doesn't mean no?
We'll just keep making you do it until we get the result we want.
All very democratic.

It's a bit like asking a woman if you can shag her.
She says no so you just keep hitting her until she says yes.
A thought provoking post Billy although I am not sure your final analogy was needed!

I think it depends how you define democracy and what sort of government human beings should aspire to:


  • One person one vote in the USA means Hillary Clinton won by 3 million votes and should be President. But the USA electoral college system does not work that way so instead they get Trump.


  • One member one vote in the Labour Party was introduced by Ed Milliband, aimed at limiting the influence of unions in leadership contests. It was implemented in 2014, with the full support of the Blairite wing, and 86% support of the entire membership, resulting in Jeremy Corbyn being elected not once, but twice. Blairites and the media still won't accept his mandate and do all they can to undermine him every day.


  • One person one vote in the EU referendum also meant the UK got Brexit- but no one knew what they were voting for, due to lies all round by our 'respected' politicians and neither did we know how much it was going to cost. So should the 48% and more who who didn't vote for Brexit just sit on our hands if they feel this is the biggest mistake in a generation? Especially when our government has such a slim majority and a leader the British people have not elected?


For me democracy is about more than one person one vote - it is about having a system of government that serves all citizens, whether they vote or not. A system that makes the right decisions knowing the electorate has diverse needs and wants; also that some, maybe many, voters are uneducated, prejudiced, racist and xenophobic (allthough all governments should be working to ensure this is not the case). It is about having checks and balances so that the democratic process provides the greatest good for the greatest number, yet not ignoring minor interests.

In November democracy in the USA, fuelled by misinformation and a press that have the interests of big business and very powerful lobbies at heart, fell far short of providing the secure government that US and world citizens need. That is why many leaders and citizens of countries outside the USA, and many citizens within it, are railing against Trump. Because he represents all that is rotten in the modern world, where a rich white man, who inherited his place in society, who is a racist and sexist boor and who generally behaves like an over-indulged three year old, bought his way to the Presidency.

Yes, some people were so devoid of hope that they needed to believe his promises, having been unforgiveably ignored by 'proper' politicians for years. I understand that, but Trump's policies will not make their lives better. Instead their President is an establishment figure-head and a threat to the stability of their country and the entire world. Just one example is his 'people' already talking about escalating conflict with North Korea. Like adolescents they are creating a pissing contest between two nuclear nations that could actuallly destroy everyone on the planet!

So if I, and others far more qualified than I, like Enda Kenny, care to show Trump up as the moron he is, it is because I want a better world for my children and grandchildren than the one wth him as the 'Leader of the Free World'. In fact if Trump represents the success of 'democracy' then heaven help us all Crying or Very sad


(PS Thanks for posting this Billy, as I have had a good hour writing my reply and have not had time to think about the stress awaiting us from 3pm! Laughing )
Well I never said I agree with Trump's policies but as far as I can see he's putting the American people first which is the way it should be imo. f*ck the rest of the world, look after your own first.
A lot of US folk have lost their jobs due to cheap imports & those jobs aint coming back H.
Ordinary people, family men with mortgages & kids to feed.
Do you really think they give a toss about somebody in Chad, Ethiopia, Bangladesh or Syria?

As for Brexit, I knew exactly what I was voting for.
An escape route from the most corrupt organisation since the old East Germany.
Even the Politburo in the Soviet Union ha more credibility than them.
Ran by unelected bureaucrats who thrive on leeching.

I like you H. I could debate this topic with you all day. Smile
That is the point I think Billy, much as we may disagree on how we got here, you thought the EU thing through and came to a decision based on a rationale that made sense to you. That is to be respected but sadly it seems many people did not have the capacity to do that. Many just believed the lies from a biased media, and politicians following their own agenda, and made their vote on emotion and not logic. Personally, although I too think the EU is a damaged institution in serious need of reform, I decided I wanted the UK to Remain as I believe countries are stronger when they work together.

But these differences in our opinions don't mean either of us is wrong or right, or bad or good and the discussion should never become personal. In any healthy and truly democratic society people with all viewpoints have to be engaged in the debate to find the best solutions to the many problems we face, in our own country and across the world. In my experince the new breed of politicians actually don't want voters to think or participate, because we might upset their gravy train!

I guess I just think that by aspiring to creating a more cooperative and less confrontational world we WOULD be looking after our own interests as a country as well. It just seems to me that all leaders and elected (and unelected!) representatives need to see the wider picture that, unless we have a safe and secure world to live in, protectionist policies are not worth a hill of beans.

(There's another hour gone Very Happy)
Indeed.
I listened to both sides several times before I made my decision.
I think both told lots of lies.
I was left feeling like my country which I have fought for was being dictated to by people who I have no say in removing.
Immigration was a minor part of my decision, although, yes, I do want control of our borders back in our own hands.
It's the stupid EU rules that nark me.
Can't do this, can't do that, can't sell wonky veg, can't sell bent cucumbers, can't buy a lb of apples.
And then there's the H&S shit - ridiculous rules on that now.
It's crippling industry with red tape. A man who can machine a lathe to very fine tolerances has to be trained to use a step ladder Sad 
I'm surprised they still allow the soldiers use live rounds.
avatar
Billy D
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 2832
Join date : 2013-06-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Black Cat Kiwi on 2017-03-18, 7:51 pm

Interesting thread, one of the better in a while I might add.  like.....We just need a race & religion to complete the parental trifecta  Suspect

H - With such ideological beliefs & wisdom have you ever stood for Government & if not why not?

________________________________________________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]                         [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
                                
avatar
Black Cat Kiwi
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 9366
Join date : 2012-08-01
Age : 99
Location : Godzone

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Nostalgic on 2017-03-18, 8:27 pm

And then there's the H&S shit - ridiculous rules on that now.
It's crippling industry with red tape. A man who can machine a lathe to very fine tolerances has to be trained to use a step ladder [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] 



I agree it is ridiculous, but you cannot legislate for dumb.  There is an article on the BBC UK News site about a man who electrocuted himself in the bath via his iPhone charger.  He actually had his phone on his chest so he could text whilst he charged it. Imagine if the same guy used a step ladder on an uneven surface and had an accident then he would have been eligible to sue the company for not training him how to use it.  


H&S protects everybody as daft as it may it appear.

Nostalgic
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 3551
Join date : 2012-08-06
Age : 79
Location : Auckland NZ

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Billy D on 2017-03-18, 8:36 pm

Nostalgic wrote:And then there's the H&S shit - ridiculous rules on that now.
It's crippling industry with red tape. A man who can machine a lathe to very fine tolerances has to be trained to use a step ladder [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] 



I agree it is ridiculous, but you cannot legislate for dumb.  There is an article on the BBC UK News site about a man who electrocuted himself in the bath via his iPhone charger.  He actually had his phone on his chest so he could text whilst he charged it. Imagine if the same guy used a step ladder on an uneven surface and had an accident then he would have been eligible to sue the company for not training him how to use it.  


H&S protects everybody as daft as it may it appear.
What's he doing with an electrical socket in his bathroom?
And even if he had one in there the trip switch should trigger.
It's virtually impossible to electrocute yourself via water in your home these days.
Besides, they are low voltage anyhow.
6-9 volt output. Hardly gonna send you to the green mile is it?
I think you're talking shit.


Last edited by Billy D on 2017-03-18, 8:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
avatar
Billy D
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 2832
Join date : 2013-06-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Nostalgic on 2017-03-18, 8:40 pm

Coming back to Trump, apparently he quoted an"old Irish proverb" at the Blessing of the Shamrock that nobody from Ireland has heard before and has now been claimed by a Nigerian poet.

Nostalgic
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 3551
Join date : 2012-08-06
Age : 79
Location : Auckland NZ

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Nostalgic on 2017-03-18, 8:46 pm

Billy D wrote:
Nostalgic wrote:And then there's the H&S shit - ridiculous rules on that now.
It's crippling industry with red tape. A man who can machine a lathe to very fine tolerances has to be trained to use a step ladder [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] 



I agree it is ridiculous, but you cannot legislate for dumb.  There is an article on the BBC UK News site about a man who electrocuted himself in the bath via his iPhone charger.  He actually had his phone on his chest so he could text whilst he charged it. Imagine if the same guy used a step ladder on an uneven surface and had an accident then he would have been eligible to sue the company for not training him how to use it.  


H&S protects everybody as daft as it may it appear.
What's he doing with an electrical socket in his bathroom?
And even if he had one in there the trip switch should trigger.
It's virtually impossible to electrocute yourself via water in your home these days.
The article is too long to copy over and I can't raise the BBC site at the minute but I just read it this morning and it apparently happened last December.

Nostalgic
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 3551
Join date : 2012-08-06
Age : 79
Location : Auckland NZ

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  cyprussyd on 2017-03-18, 9:06 pm

Nostalgic wrote:
Billy D wrote:
Nostalgic wrote:And then there's the H&S shit - ridiculous rules on that now.
It's crippling industry with red tape. A man who can machine a lathe to very fine tolerances has to be trained to use a step ladder [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] 



I agree it is ridiculous, but you cannot legislate for dumb.  There is an article on the BBC UK News site about a man who electrocuted himself in the bath via his iPhone charger.  He actually had his phone on his chest so he could text whilst he charged it. Imagine if the same guy used a step ladder on an uneven surface and had an accident then he would have been eligible to sue the company for not training him how to use it.  


H&S protects everybody as daft as it may it appear.
What's he doing with an electrical socket in his bathroom?
And even if he had one in there the trip switch should trigger.
It's virtually impossible to electrocute yourself via water in your home these days.
The article is too long to copy over and I can't raise the BBC site at the minute but I just read it this morning and it apparently happened last December.
Man dies charging iPhone while in the bath


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Image copyrightREX FEATURES
A man was electrocuted as he charged his mobile phone while in the bath, an inquest has heard.
Richard Bull, 32, died when his iPhone charger made contact with the water at his home in Ealing, west London.
A coroner ruled his death was accidental and plans to send a report to Apple about taking action to prevent future deaths.
Safety campaigners have warned about the dangers of charging mobiles near water following the inquest.
Mr Bull is believed to have plugged his charger into an extension cord from the hallway and rested it on his chest while using the phone, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
He suffered severe burns on his chest, arm and hand when the charger touched the water and died on 11 December, the newspaper said.
Assistant coroner Dr Sean Cummings, who conducted the inquest at West London Coroner's Court on Wednesday, is to write a [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] to send to Apple.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Image copyrightGETTY IMAGESImage captionMr Bull was charging an iPhone when he was electrocuted
Charity Electrical Safety First said the death highlighted some of the dangers of having electrical appliances around water.
Product safety manager Steve Curtler said people would not get electrocuted from a mobile appliance such as a laptop or mobile phone if it was not being charged.
Such devices typically have a low voltage of 5V to 20V so "you probably wouldn't feel it" if they came into contact with water, he added.
However, connecting a mobile phone to a charger plugged into the mains electricity supply increases the risk of harm.
"Although the cable that is plugged in to your phone is 5V, somewhere along the line it's plugged into the electricity supply and you're reliant on that cable and a transformer to make sure you don't get into contact with the main voltage," said Mr Curtler.
He said cheap, non-branded chargers may not offer such protection, but even with genuine chargers you are still taking an unnecessary risk.
"You're wet, which conducts electricity a lot better; you're in the bath with no clothes on, so skin resistance is less. You're vulnerable in the bathroom."

'Risking death'

The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (Rospa) warns against using any electrical appliance in the bathroom.
Public health adviser Sheila Merrill said: "People need to be aware of taking an electrical appliance into the bathroom.
"The advice has always been given with regard to hairdryers and radios - not to use in the bathroom.
"If you have got any appliance attached to the mains electricity circuit, you have to be aware there is a danger there.
"You're risking death. Electricity and water don't mix, but particularly with phones, people probably don't always think about it.
"It's not advisable to use them while they're plugged in, particularly in a bathroom situation."
She said Rospa did not see this type of accident on a "regular basis" and most mobile phone manufacturers cover the electric shock risk in their safety handling support advice.
However, with a lot of mobile phones the advice does not come with the instructions you receive in your hand, she added.
Apple did not respond to requests for a comment.

________________________________________________________
          My glass is always half full and occasionally over flowing. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
avatar
cyprussyd
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 42436
Join date : 2012-07-31
Age : 69
Location : Durham

http://www.sunderlandmad.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Billy D on 2017-03-18, 9:14 pm

cyprussyd wrote:
Nostalgic wrote:
Billy D wrote:
Nostalgic wrote:And then there's the H&S shit - ridiculous rules on that now.
It's crippling industry with red tape. A man who can machine a lathe to very fine tolerances has to be trained to use a step ladder [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] 



I agree it is ridiculous, but you cannot legislate for dumb.  There is an article on the BBC UK News site about a man who electrocuted himself in the bath via his iPhone charger.  He actually had his phone on his chest so he could text whilst he charged it. Imagine if the same guy used a step ladder on an uneven surface and had an accident then he would have been eligible to sue the company for not training him how to use it.  


H&S protects everybody as daft as it may it appear.
What's he doing with an electrical socket in his bathroom?
And even if he had one in there the trip switch should trigger.
It's virtually impossible to electrocute yourself via water in your home these days.
The article is too long to copy over and I can't raise the BBC site at the minute but I just read it this morning and it apparently happened last December.
Man dies charging iPhone while in the bath


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Image copyrightREX FEATURES
A man was electrocuted as he charged his mobile phone while in the bath, an inquest has heard.
Richard Bull, 32, died when his iPhone charger made contact with the water at his home in Ealing, west London.
A coroner ruled his death was accidental and plans to send a report to Apple about taking action to prevent future deaths.
Safety campaigners have warned about the dangers of charging mobiles near water following the inquest.
Mr Bull is believed to have plugged his charger into an extension cord from the hallway and rested it on his chest while using the phone, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]the Sun reports.
He suffered severe burns on his chest, arm and hand when the charger touched the water and died on 11 December, the newspaper said.
Assistant coroner Dr Sean Cummings, who conducted the inquest at West London Coroner's Court on Wednesday, is to write a [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]prevention of future death report to send to Apple.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Image copyrightGETTY IMAGESImage captionMr Bull was charging an iPhone when he was electrocuted
Charity Electrical Safety First said the death highlighted some of the dangers of having electrical appliances around water.
Product safety manager Steve Curtler said people would not get electrocuted from a mobile appliance such as a laptop or mobile phone if it was not being charged.
Such devices typically have a low voltage of 5V to 20V so "you probably wouldn't feel it" if they came into contact with water, he added.
However, connecting a mobile phone to a charger plugged into the mains electricity supply increases the risk of harm.
"Although the cable that is plugged in to your phone is 5V, somewhere along the line it's plugged into the electricity supply and you're reliant on that cable and a transformer to make sure you don't get into contact with the main voltage," said Mr Curtler.
He said cheap, non-branded chargers may not offer such protection, but even with genuine chargers you are still taking an unnecessary risk.
"You're wet, which conducts electricity a lot better; you're in the bath with no clothes on, so skin resistance is less. You're vulnerable in the bathroom."

'Risking death'



The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (Rospa) warns against using any electrical appliance in the bathroom.
Public health adviser Sheila Merrill said: "People need to be aware of taking an electrical appliance into the bathroom.
"The advice has always been given with regard to hairdryers and radios - not to use in the bathroom.
"If you have got any appliance attached to the mains electricity circuit, you have to be aware there is a danger there.
"You're risking death. Electricity and water don't mix, but particularly with phones, people probably don't always think about it.
"It's not advisable to use them while they're plugged in, particularly in a bathroom situation."
She said Rospa did not see this type of accident on a "regular basis" and most mobile phone manufacturers cover the electric shock risk in their safety handling support advice.
However, with a lot of mobile phones the advice does not come with the instructions you receive in your hand, she added.
Apple did not respond to requests for a comment.
Fair enough.
His circuit box must be f*cked.
I could throw an electrical item into the basin live & the trip would trigger immediately.
avatar
Billy D
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 2832
Join date : 2013-06-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Hieronymus on 2017-03-18, 10:44 pm

Black Cat Kiwi wrote:Interesting thread, one of the better in a while I might add.  like.....We just need a race & religion to complete the parental trifecta  Suspect

H - With such ideological beliefs & wisdom have you ever stood for Government & if not why not?
Kiwi thank you, you are too kind Embarassed I thought about it when I was younger but family and life came first. Now I feel I am too old to cope with the campaigning and all the rubbish that comes the way of many candidates, especially females. I am probably too idealistic for national politics these days sadly.

Having said that I have become more active in our local branch of the Labour party and not only have I just taken over the Treasurer role, but I am standing as a candidate in Berwick West for Northumberland County Council on May 4th. I will probably not win as the incumbent (Lib Dem) is well entrenched, plus the local constituency party is concertrating campaign funds on wards with more likelihood of Labour winning, but you never know! Very Happy
avatar
Hieronymus
Admin Problem Solver
Admin Problem Solver

Posts : 8436
Join date : 2012-08-07
Age : 61

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Nostalgic on 2017-03-18, 11:23 pm

Hieronymus wrote:
Black Cat Kiwi wrote:Interesting thread, one of the better in a while I might add.  like.....We just need a race & religion to complete the parental trifecta  Suspect

H - With such ideological beliefs & wisdom have you ever stood for Government & if not why not?
Kiwi thank you, you are too kind Embarassed I thought about it when I was younger but family and life came first. Now I feel I am too old to cope with the campaigning and all the rubbish that comes the way of many candidates, especially females. I am probably too idealistic for national politics these days sadly.

Having said that I have become more active in our local branch of the Labour party and not only have I just taken over the Treasurer role, but I am standing as a candidate in Berwick West for Northumberland County Council on May 4th. I will probably not win as the incumbent (Lib Dem) is well entrenched, plus the local constituency party is concertrating campaign funds on wards with more likelihood of Labour winning, but you never know! Very Happy
Come on H, it is easy peasy to win an election.  Just promise everybody what they want and once elected you can then blame everybody else on the Council for not standing by you.

Nostalgic
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 3551
Join date : 2012-08-06
Age : 79
Location : Auckland NZ

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Black Cat Kiwi on 2017-03-19, 2:39 am

Hieronymus wrote:
Black Cat Kiwi wrote:Interesting thread, one of the better in a while I might add.  like.....We just need a race & religion to complete the parental trifecta  Suspect

H - With such ideological beliefs & wisdom have you ever stood for Government & if not why not?
Kiwi thank you, you are too kind Embarassed I thought about it when I was younger but family and life came first. Now I feel I am too old to cope with the campaigning and all the rubbish that comes the way of many candidates, especially females. I am probably too idealistic for national politics these days sadly.

Having said that I have become more active in our local branch of the Labour party and not only have I just taken over the Treasurer role, but I am standing as a candidate in Berwick West for Northumberland County Council on May 4th. I will probably not win as the incumbent (Lib Dem) is well entrenched, plus the local constituency party is concertrating campaign funds on wards with more likelihood of Labour winning, but you never know! Very Happy

Get knocking on the doors & LISTEN to what they want.

Formulate a solution & shout it from the rooftops  cheers  

Ps. It works so don't sell yourself short unless you feel you're selling your soul.

________________________________________________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]                         [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
                                
avatar
Black Cat Kiwi
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 9366
Join date : 2012-08-01
Age : 99
Location : Godzone

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  cyprussyd on 2017-03-19, 8:00 am

I can see a ban on immigrants moving to Berwick, would this be the right time to come clean about H touching my leg and calling me big boy in 2007?

________________________________________________________
          My glass is always half full and occasionally over flowing. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
avatar
cyprussyd
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 42436
Join date : 2012-07-31
Age : 69
Location : Durham

http://www.sunderlandmad.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Hieronymus on 2017-03-19, 9:25 am

Black Cat Kiwi wrote:
Hieronymus wrote:
Black Cat Kiwi wrote:Interesting thread, one of the better in a while I might add.  like.....We just need a race & religion to complete the parental trifecta  Suspect

H - With such ideological beliefs & wisdom have you ever stood for Government & if not why not?
Kiwi thank you, you are too kind Embarassed I thought about it when I was younger but family and life came first. Now I feel I am too old to cope with the campaigning and all the rubbish that comes the way of many candidates, especially females. I am probably too idealistic for national politics these days sadly.

Having said that I have become more active in our local branch of the Labour party and not only have I just taken over the Treasurer role, but I am standing as a candidate in Berwick West for Northumberland County Council on May 4th. I will probably not win as the incumbent (Lib Dem) is well entrenched, plus the local constituency party is concertrating campaign funds on wards with more likelihood of Labour winning, but you never know! Very Happy

Get knocking on the doors & LISTEN to what they want.

Formulate a solution & shout it from the rooftops  cheers  

Ps. It works so don't sell yourself short unless you feel you're selling your soul.
Thanks Kiwi, I am just standing as what they call a paper candidate - so I am not expected to doorstep, with no money even for leaflets, but I am thinking I might try and do some door knocking anyway and even pay for a few leaflets myself if it is allowed. But if I hadn't put my name forward then those who want to vote Labour would have had nowhere to put their cross so at least I can do that and we will see what happens.
avatar
Hieronymus
Admin Problem Solver
Admin Problem Solver

Posts : 8436
Join date : 2012-08-07
Age : 61

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Hieronymus on 2017-03-19, 9:29 am

cyprussyd wrote:I can see a ban on immigrants moving to Berwick, would this be the right time to come clean about H touching my leg and calling me big boy in 2007?

You are a big boy so only telling the truth big kiss

And all are welcome to come to this beautiful and friendly part of the world Very Happy
avatar
Hieronymus
Admin Problem Solver
Admin Problem Solver

Posts : 8436
Join date : 2012-08-07
Age : 61

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Billy D on 2017-03-19, 8:24 pm

Elections.
Do any of you feel your vote is wasted?
By that I mean makes no difference who you vote for as the outcome will always be the same.
My Parliamentary constituency is Durham North, one of the safest Labour seats in the country.
Jonesy knows he's on to a good thing there, so if by chance I vote Tory it wont matter a jot.
I wish I lived in a marginal so I could have an effect on the result.
avatar
Billy D
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 2832
Join date : 2013-06-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  sunderpitt on 2017-03-19, 9:02 pm

Well done H....i am also a long standing LP member....but as even my 86 year old Mum thinks Cornyn is a numpty..

I just see us with no chance of winning a GE

I live in a safe labour seat...so what do you do.

I was lucky enough to meet Michael Foot and really liked him...but he was stuffed in 83...but Corbyn is not even a shadow of Foot.

So Labour like my football team is heading to the 2nd division


Last edited by sunderpitt on 2017-03-19, 9:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
avatar
sunderpitt
Number Cruncher
Number Cruncher

Posts : 6105
Join date : 2012-08-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Irish PM with Trumo

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum