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The referendum, my strategy

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  canary-dave on 2016-06-05, 12:11 pm

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EU referendum: Sir John Major's anger at Leave campaign 'deceit'

Former PM Sir John Major has said he is "angry about the way the British people are being misled" by the campaign to get Britain out of the European Union.
He told Andrew Marr he feared people would vote to leave on the basis of information "known to be incorrect".
He highlighted claims by Leave figures Boris Johnson and Michael Gove that the UK sent £350m a week to the EU as an example of "deceit".
Mr Johnson stood by the claim and urged an end to "blue-on-blue action".

Sir John insisted he was not personally attacking fellow Conservatives Mr Johnson and Mr Gove but he accused them of running a campaign that was "verging on the squalid".
And he described former London mayor Mr Johnson as a "court jester," who he suggested might not have the loyalty of Conservative MPs if he became party leader.

'Hungry python'



In his most outspoken intervention to date in the referendum debate, the former Conservative leader said: "They are misleading people to an extraordinary extent".
"They are feeding out to the British people a whole galaxy of inaccurate and frankly untrue information.
"And what they have not done is tell us what would be the position if we were to vote to leave," he told Andrew Marr.


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[size=13]Media captionBoris Johnson: "My view about the EU has changed, but that's because the EU has changed"[/size]
He predicted "chaos" if Britain voted to leave in 23 June's referendum and claimed Britain would lose a "huge amount national income" through trade with Europe, adding: "These promises of expenditure on the National Health Service and elsewhere are frankly fatuous, they are a deceit."
He claimed the NHS would be "about as safe" in the hands of Mr Johnson, Justice Secretary Mr Gove and former Cabinet minister Iain Duncan Smith as a "pet hamster would be with a hungry python".
And he suggested Mr Johnson knew Britain's contribution to the EU, after a rebate and money back for farmers, was "about one third" of the £350m claimed on the side of his Vote Leave battle bus.

'Take back control'



Mr Johnson told Andrew Marr the £350m figure was a "reasonable" one to use, arguing that, although some of it was returned by the EU, "this is money we cannot control," adding that it could be spent on the NHS or other "one nation" priorities instead in the event of a Brexit.
He said Vote Leave was setting out "an agenda for the government to take back control" after leaving the EU.
Sir John also attacked Vote Leave's "depressing and awful" arguments on immigration, including the suggestion that millions of Turkish people could "flood" into the UK if Turkey was given the right to join the EU.
"Turkey will not be in the European Union for a very, very long time, if ever, and the Leave campaign know that. That's the point - they know that," he said.
He also dismissed Leave campaign suggestions that the EU was run by a conspiracy of "unelected elites" was "another piece of copper-bottomed Leave nonsense".

He is conveniently overlooking the lies and deceit being spread by Cameron and the rest of bremain, you pays your money and takes your choice of who to be influenced by!

I have always swayed to the out campaign in spite of Boris and Gove rather than because of them!

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  Silvers on 2016-06-05, 1:10 pm

Everyone is affected individually of course by membership of the EU.

In my case I was lucky to have never had a day out of work.

My employers were British, German and Austrian. The factory where I was based depended on and did well with European Trade.
They still do.

North America and Australasia both impose custom tariffs on British goods so exporting there was not as easy.
Nor is it now.

We are a trading nation. That is where we make our money.

As you say. You pays your money and you take your choice.


Very Happy
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  Black Cat Kiwi on 2016-06-06, 2:49 am

silvers wrote:Everyone is affected individually of course by membership of the EU.

In my case I was lucky to have never had a day out of work.

My employers were British, German and Austrian. The factory where I was based depended on and did well with European Trade.
They still do.

North America and Australasia both impose custom tariffs on British goods so exporting there was not as easy.
Nor is it now.

We are a trading nation. That is where we make our money.

As you say. You pays your money and you take your choice.


Very Happy

To all, very interesting to read your views.

Silvers, Whilst technically correct it's not the whole story.
In brief NZ has been trying for nearly 30 years to have a trade free agreement with the UK but has been blocked due to it's inability and then the EU, to economically compete with NZ's agricultural exports that would ultimately cost jobs. Even with the government assistance that many EU farmers receive, unlike their NZ counterparts, you'll still find many NZ produced food lines available on European supermarket shelves.
From a NZ perspective a UK exit from the EU, trade wise would open up more opportunities BOTH ways.

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  sunderpitt on 2016-06-06, 6:48 am

silvers wrote:Everyone is affected individually of course by membership of the EU.

In my case I was lucky to have never had a day out of work.

My employers were British, German and Austrian. The factory where I was based depended on and did well with European Trade.
They still do.

North America and Australasia both impose custom tariffs on British goods so exporting there was not as easy.
Nor is it now.

We are a trading nation. That is where we make our money.

As you say. You pays your money and you take your choice.


Very Happy

Before the EU it was also possible to live and work in Europe it is a fallacy that you need the EU to visit or work in Europe. 

If you have the best goods ans services at the best price they will sell
 
One effect the EU has added to is to help kill off manufacturing in the UK. Germamy had kept and indeed grown most of its.
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-06-06, 7:40 am

I listened to both Cameron and Gove in the Sky interviews.
Both sounded very convincing but both are politicians so would.
I'm not swayed by the workers rights, human rights, H&S arguments. Yes we have the EU to thank for many and yes a Boris led government would put a lot at risk. I would like to believe that the political system and people of the UK would reject any watering down of these rights.
For me immigration, workers rights and the rest are not key. It comes down to taking control of our country v jobs and the economy.
right now control is winning but still no knockout punch

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  Hieronymus on 2016-06-06, 11:13 am

sunderpitt wrote:
silvers wrote:Everyone is affected individually of course by membership of the EU.

In my case I was lucky to have never had a day out of work.

My employers were British, German and Austrian. The factory where I was based depended on and did well with European Trade.
They still do.

North America and Australasia both impose custom tariffs on British goods so exporting there was not as easy.
Nor is it now.

We are a trading nation. That is where we make our money.

As you say. You pays your money and you take your choice.


Very Happy

Before the EU it was also possible to live and work in Europe it is a fallacy that you need the EU to visit or work in Europe. (1)

If you have the best goods ans services at the best price they will sell (2)
 
One effect the EU has added to is to help kill off manufacturing in the UK. Germamy had kept and indeed grown most of its. (3)
I beg to differ:

Point 1 - I agree visiting will probably be okay although passport controls are more of a pain for non-EU citizens so maybe will affect the tourism industry INTO the UK worse. But Europe today is a different world than it was in the 1970's for workers, and if you are not a EU citizen then stringent work visa's are required and residency requirements, even for retirees, are much dfferent if you want health care etc. Just ask any of the 320k expats living in Spain or the 220k living in Ireland, or the 170k living in France, how worried they are. And look at the work permits non-EU people require here for example for footlball and many other jobs. British people would have the same difficulty if we leave the EU, because why would European countries want our workers, when we have rejected theirs?

Point 2 - I believe the EU as a collective will undercut UK goods and services if we vote Brexit and that many foreign companies will leave the UK for an EU country to ensure they can access the single market. If China for example wants to invest in a country, will they choose the UK in splendid isolation with its market of around 44m adults, or the EU with its market of 400m adults? It will be worse than a painful divorce, it will be commercial suicide.

Point 3 - Manufacturing in the UK was destroyed by Margaret Thatcher and neo-liberal ideology, by neutralising unions (with illegal police intervention) and selling off public services that previously bought many of the goods and services we produced. EU rules allow state aid and public intervention for "services of general economic interest", including infrastructure and services to communities. There was never any necessity to sell off serrvices, or to stop the UK supportingg British made steel, ships, trains, cars, or from having publically run railways, water, energy etc. Germany, France, Italy and Spain certainly still do this. It is actually being in the EU that saved what manufacturing we have left, as access to the single market encouraged Nissan and Toyota and Siemens and many other manufacturers to build or take over plants here, while our own government stood by and watched communities die instead.
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  Silvers on 2016-06-06, 11:29 am

Yes, it worries me that 'our' Govt appear totally clueless in managing the country.
We had the Banking collapses in England and Scotland which had nowt to do with Europe and which has brought about current austerity.

We have a far right govt. and an opposition in disarray and not yet able to offer a viable alternative.

Can we govern ourselves?
It's not really a question as we already do.

This referendum has brought about more divisiveness in the country.
People are polarised.
The phrase divide and conquer springs to mind.

Remember we are a trading nation.
We spent many years trying to obtain access to this market of 400m +
The country prospered.

Anyway, this is my last post on this particular subject.

Very Happy
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  sunderpitt on 2016-06-06, 6:19 pm

Dear Mrs H and Silvers....It is obvious we are not going to agree...Many of the so called facts you state are merely assertions that you believe are true...

I also cannot state as a hat trade will not unduly suffer if we leave the EU...I can assert I believe it is true..and you vici versa.

What is a fact (or so I believe ) is that if you are living abroad on your own property legally you are fine.

If the EU is punitive towards us if we leave that is not a reason to argue to stay...rather to leave...
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  vinkel on 2016-06-07, 8:01 am

I have decided 100% now, it's time to take control of our country. And to do that we must LEAVE.

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-06-08, 6:32 am

Did you watch Farage v Cameron last night?
Did it change or confirm your decision?
Or did it make no difference?

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  Mackemneil on 2016-06-08, 5:14 pm

"What did the EU ever do for us? 
Not much, apart from:
- providing 57% of our trade;
- structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
- clean beaches and rivers;
- cleaner air;
- lead free petrol;
- restrictions on landfill dumping;
- a recycling culture;
- cheaper mobile phone charges;
- cheaper air travel;
- improved consumer protection and food labelling;
- a ban on growth hormones and harmful food additives;
- better product safety;
- single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
- break up of monopolies;
- Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
- no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
- price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
- freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
- funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
- access to European health services;
- labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
- smoke-free workplaces;
- equal pay legislation;
- holiday entitlement;
- the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
- strongest wildlife protection in the world;
- improved animal welfare in food production;
- EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
- EU representation in international forums;
- bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
- EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
- European arrest warrant;
- cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
- European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
- support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
- investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future."
Simon Sweeney,
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-06-08, 10:56 pm

Whatever the outcome and whatever side you are on the rhetoric, especially blue on blue is becoming embarrassing.

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-06-09, 1:47 am

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MILLIONS of Labour voters will defy Jeremy Corbyn and vote Britain out of Europe, according to a left-wing group aiming to pull Britain out of the clutches of Europe.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ZOIE O'BRIEN

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  Panther on 2016-06-10, 2:02 pm

Forgive me for asking as this referendum doesn't effect me living in Oz but IF people vote in favour of Brexit this has then got to go before the House of Commons for ratification.
Don't Mr Cameron and his party control the House of Commons?
Seems like a pointless exercise to me.
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  canary-dave on 2016-06-10, 2:21 pm

Panther wrote:Forgive me for asking as this referendum doesn't effect me living in Oz but IF people vote in favour of Brexit this has then got to go before the House of Commons for ratification.
Don't Mr Cameron and his party control the House of Commons?
Seems like a pointless exercise to me.

It has been widely reported that the result of the referendum is not binding. If, however, there is overwhelming support to leave, it would leave Cameron in a very precarious position!

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  Hieronymus on 2016-06-10, 2:26 pm

Panther wrote:Forgive me for asking as this referendum doesn't effect me living in Oz but IF people vote in favour of Brexit this has then got to go before the House of Commons for ratification.
Don't Mr Cameron and his party control the House of Commons?
Seems like a pointless exercise to me.
Cameron only has a majority of 12 and many Tories are pro-EU and against Brexit, however if Labour, Tory 'Inners', SNP etc. get together they could agree not to ratify the referendum result as you suggest. Which personally I would love to see happen, as David Cameorn would then face a vote of no confidence by his OWN party and he would have to call an election. Then people could have their say on his leadership and cruel Tory austerity policies, which is far more important than EU membership to the majority of people in the UK IMO.
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  Panther on 2016-06-11, 3:58 am

Hieronymus wrote:
Panther wrote:Forgive me for asking as this referendum doesn't effect me living in Oz but IF people vote in favour of Brexit this has then got to go before the House of Commons for ratification.
Don't Mr Cameron and his party control the House of Commons?
Seems like a pointless exercise to me.
Cameron only has a majority of 12 and many Tories are pro-EU and against Brexit, however if Labour, Tory 'Inners', SNP etc. get together they could agree not to ratify the referendum result as you suggest. Which personally I would love to see happen, as David Cameorn would then face a vote of no confidence by his OWN party and he would have to call an election. Then people could have their say on his leadership and cruel Tory austerity policies, which is far more important than EU membership to the majority of people in the UK IMO.
Yes, I understand how delicate this situation is.
We found, through interviews shown on TV here in Oz, that there are many suffering from the old "British Disease" ('Eff you Jack, I'm all right') especially those living abroad and running their own businesses. They seem to be far more concerned about themselves rather than the terrible situation in Britain at the moment with the influx of refugee's and asylum seekers reaching 'saturation point' which is causing much unrest throughout the Country. I don't know much about Mr Cameron but he comes across as an old Eton Schoolboy who looks down on the people of Britain as lesser mortals who should have no right to question his, and/or his Governments, decisions.
As a footnote to my short rant, Multiculturalism has not worked anywhere in the world. Not anywhere. Yet Governments all over the world continue to advocate it. Can anyone tell me why?
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  Panther on 2016-06-11, 6:45 am

It looks like we are not alone:

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-06-11, 7:23 am

Panther wrote:
Hieronymus wrote:
Panther wrote:Forgive me for asking as this referendum doesn't effect me living in Oz but IF people vote in favour of Brexit this has then got to go before the House of Commons for ratification.
Don't Mr Cameron and his party control the House of Commons?
Seems like a pointless exercise to me.
Cameron only has a majority of 12 and many Tories are pro-EU and against Brexit, however if Labour, Tory 'Inners', SNP etc. get together they could agree not to ratify the referendum result as you suggest. Which personally I would love to see happen, as David Cameorn would then face a vote of no confidence by his OWN party and he would have to call an election. Then people could have their say on his leadership and cruel Tory austerity policies, which is far more important than EU membership to the majority of people in the UK IMO.
Yes, I understand how delicate this situation is.
We found, through interviews shown on TV here in Oz, that there are many suffering from the old "British Disease" ('Eff you Jack, I'm all right') especially those living abroad and running their own businesses. They seem to be far more concerned about themselves rather than the terrible situation in Britain at the moment with the influx of refugee's and asylum seekers reaching 'saturation point' which is causing much unrest throughout the Country. I don't know much about Mr Cameron but he comes across as an old Eton Schoolboy who looks down on the people of Britain as lesser mortals who should have no right to question his, and/or his Governments, decisions.
As a footnote to my short rant, Multiculturalism has not worked anywhere in the world. Not anywhere. Yet Governments all over the world continue to advocate it. Can anyone tell me why?
Sounds like him to me, spot on.

I live in a bubble in that immigration and all these Johnny Foreigners dont bother me. Durham because of the hospitals and Universities has always been a City and area of great diversity, I see skin of every color and always have with students in Durham so diversity is nothing new.

We done really have an immigration problem but a few miles north in parts of Newcastle or south in Middlesbrough they do.
I was in the village chemist on Tuesday and a young black man came in, it was a shock because the only dark skin I see is in the take away or doctors, it brought it home to me just how small that bubble is.

So for me, personally, I honestly dont think my life will alter whatever the outcome of the vote so its my son and grandson I am thinking of, what will be best for their future.

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  sunderpitt on 2016-06-11, 11:17 am

canary-dave wrote:
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EU referendum: Sir John Major's anger at Leave campaign 'deceit'

Former PM Sir John Major has said he is "angry about the way the British people are being misled" by the campaign to get Britain out of the European Union.
He told Andrew Marr he feared people would vote to leave on the basis of information "known to be incorrect".
He highlighted claims by Leave figures Boris Johnson and Michael Gove that the UK sent £350m a week to the EU as an example of "deceit".
Mr Johnson stood by the claim and urged an end to "blue-on-blue action".

Sir John insisted he was not personally attacking fellow Conservatives Mr Johnson and Mr Gove but he accused them of running a campaign that was "verging on the squalid".
And he described former London mayor Mr Johnson as a "court jester," who he suggested might not have the loyalty of Conservative MPs if he became party leader.

'Hungry python'





In his most outspoken intervention to date in the referendum debate, the former Conservative leader said: "They are misleading people to an extraordinary extent".
"They are feeding out to the British people a whole galaxy of inaccurate and frankly untrue information.
"And what they have not done is tell us what would be the position if we were to vote to leave," he told Andrew Marr.


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[size=13]Media captionBoris Johnson: "My view about the EU has changed, but that's because the EU has changed"[/size]
He predicted "chaos" if Britain voted to leave in 23 June's referendum and claimed Britain would lose a "huge amount national income" through trade with Europe, adding: "These promises of expenditure on the National Health Service and elsewhere are frankly fatuous, they are a deceit."
He claimed the NHS would be "about as safe" in the hands of Mr Johnson, Justice Secretary Mr Gove and former Cabinet minister Iain Duncan Smith as a "pet hamster would be with a hungry python".
And he suggested Mr Johnson knew Britain's contribution to the EU, after a rebate and money back for farmers, was "about one third" of the £350m claimed on the side of his Vote Leave battle bus.

'Take back control'





Mr Johnson told Andrew Marr the £350m figure was a "reasonable" one to use, arguing that, although some of it was returned by the EU, "this is money we cannot control," adding that it could be spent on the NHS or other "one nation" priorities instead in the event of a Brexit.
He said Vote Leave was setting out "an agenda for the government to take back control" after leaving the EU.
Sir John also attacked Vote Leave's "depressing and awful" arguments on immigration, including the suggestion that millions of Turkish people could "flood" into the UK if Turkey was given the right to join the EU.
"Turkey will not be in the European Union for a very, very long time, if ever, and the Leave campaign know that. That's the point - they know that," he said.
He also dismissed Leave campaign suggestions that the EU was run by a conspiracy of "unelected elites" was "another piece of copper-bottomed Leave nonsense".

He is conveniently overlooking the lies and deceit being spread by Cameron and the rest of bremain, you pays your money and takes your choice of who to be influenced by!

I have always swayed to the out campaign in spite of Boris and Gove rather than because of them!

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-06-19, 2:39 pm

100 people from Newcastle were asked today if they thought Britain should change its currency. 98% said they were happy with the Giro.

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  canary-dave on 2016-06-19, 5:27 pm

cyprussyd wrote:100 people from Newcastle were asked today if they thought Britain should change its currency. 98% said they were happy with the Giro.

You shouldn't mock the afflicted Syd, they have enough to contend with just by coming from Newcastle!

Anyway, they won't understamd that there's anything wrong with your statement!   Embarassed

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  Nostalgic on 2016-06-19, 9:36 pm

As time has gone on I have become more confused by it all but what is becoming more obvious to an ex-pat is that it is driven by vested interest.  

We got by before we joined the EU so I suppose we will get by if we leave but the quality of life for those at the bottom is of least interest to the politcos.

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  sunderpitt on 2016-06-19, 11:16 pm

Nostalgic wrote:As time has gone on I have become more confused by it all but what is becoming more obvious to an ex-pat is that it is driven by vested interest.  

We got by before we joined the EU so I suppose we will get by if we leave but the quality of life for those at the bottom is of least interest to the politcos.

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Something even the pro Remain *(Canadian ) Bank of England Governor has admitted is that the EU migrants have by and large depressed the wages of the less weii-off, pushed rents up and taken up various public services
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  vinkel on 2016-06-22, 11:55 am

My final word on the subject,  cast your mind back before we joined the Eu. How many east European gang members were in our jails. Why does the rest of the Eu want us in, so they can send us a few hundred thousand more  Question.

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