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The referendum, my strategy

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The referendum, my strategy

Post  vinkel on 2016-04-28, 7:50 pm

I will watch what i can, i will read what i can. I will then inwardly digest what i have seen and read. I will then vote OUT.

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-04-28, 8:27 pm

Swaying towards out

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  leothelion on 2016-05-02, 12:23 pm

everybody I know is an OUT
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  sunderpitt on 2016-05-02, 4:24 pm

like
vinkel wrote:I will watch what i can, i will read what i can. I will then inwardly digest what i have seen and read. I will then vote OUT.


I voted in in the 1970s...and I reckon  trade agreements are great but what the EU has become the corruption, the Euro the not working of closer union, the open borders  (if Turkey gets in watch out)
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  MrRAWhite on 2016-05-31, 10:49 am

I am examining this from every angle I can think of and then weighing up the positives and negatives. After weeks of doing this I still find myself being undecided. I'm hoping for some inspiration in the final weeks of this saga.

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-05-31, 12:12 pm

i will either be voting in or out

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  sunderpitt on 2016-05-31, 12:25 pm

As a former economist and accountant I feel very insulted by Cameron and Gideon's predictions of economic armaggedon if we exit the EU that is nonsense and for those two to lie is not on. All the think tanks to come out likewise when most of them are funded totally or partly by the EU fills me with disgust.

Whilst at the same time the Leave campaign and it's blatant stoking up immigration fears is equally awful. We do need migration into this coumtry and it does need regulating that is all they should say. Farage is madried to a German ffs.

A key point for me is that democratic decisions should be made at the lowest level possible...with the EU that is a nonsense. I am interested in politics and I could not tell you who my MEP is. Too many eurocrats making decisions for ttemwleves  with large salaries. The whole EU is corrupt the accounts have not been signed off for years.

Then there is Putin. .imho Russia is as close now as it ever had been to invading bordering countries. Germany is dependant on Russia for gas as Merkel to win votes decided not to build nuclear power stations...We need a strong NATO (with the USA) not some airy fairy EU force.

So yes I am an outer which I reckon in a few years will be economically better for us and in lots of other ways to eg a chance to control immigration
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-05-31, 12:46 pm

I'm not an economist sunders and no longer believe anything our political leaders tell us. Recession world war 3 and mass immigration are the scare stories from both sides.
My gut feeling gives me a deep mistrust of the EU and its politics.
My gut feeling says that surely we can do better.
My problem is a system here that somehow gave us this unbelievable government.
Whatever the outcome we are looking like a choice of far left but maybe dragged a little to the centre or a simple far right.
I prefer the left but they want us to stay in.
On the day of the vote I can see a gut feeling and right now that's out, just.

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  canary-dave on 2016-05-31, 1:01 pm

cyprussyd wrote:I'm not an economist sunders and no longer believe anything our political leaders tell us. Recession world war 3 and mass immigration are the scare stories from both sides.
My gut feeling gives me a deep mistrust of the EU and its politics.
My gut feeling says that surely we can do better.
My problem is a system here that somehow gave us this unbelievable government.
Whatever the outcome we are looking like a choice of far left but maybe dragged a little to the centre or a simple far right.
I prefer the left but they want us to stay in.
On the day of the vote I can see a gut feeling and right now that's out, just.

I agree with most of what you say Syd, the one difference being my certainty of voting out, I'm very strongly in favour of us being masters of our own destiny, not led there by unelected bureaucrat!

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-05-31, 3:00 pm

Could I add that I am increasingly becoming concerned about the alarming rise in the popularity of far right parties and politicians.

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  Hieronymus on 2016-05-31, 3:53 pm

How about some facts instead of myths? See article below (from 2014 but has some recent comments)

In reality each EU country elects MEP's and they decide on legislation, which cannot be enacted without the approval of these elected MEP's, and Ministers, appointed by elected governments and Heads of state of the member countries. Any bureaucracy is just like any other civil service, unelected yes, but necessary for the smooth running of an organisation the size of the EU. Does anyone really think all the thousands of civil servants working for the UK government should be elected or, if they were, it would improve law making in this country?

I agree the EU is far from perfect ( I would stop the movement between Brussels and Strasbourg for a start) but at least representatives are elected usung proportional representation, so no vote is wasted. We could go so far as to say the EU is MORE democratic than the UK, as 75% of potential voters in 2015. i.e. 3 out of every 4 of us who were eligible, did not vote for the current UK government. But we are all having to live with the consequences. 

The IN/OUT debate is nasty and far too vitriolic, with outrageous claims by both sides so no wonder people are confused and do not know who to believe. But my personal view is this is too big a decision to be made on a gut feeling. My fear is 'gut feelings' are being fuelled by the biased, emotionally charged opinions of journalists and commentators employed by right wing media moguls, who do not even live in the UK! They are peddling these EU myths (lies I would say) and stoking jingoistic nationalism among many people who feel disenfranchised by the current political system, as well as pandering to those (at the top) who are only out for themselves as a matter of course. 

I really don't want to rant (I know I am anyway Embarassed ) and this is now a long post. But please, I ask you all to consider that much of the media and Eurosceptic Tories have an agenda; to stop all regulation and requirements for tax and financial transparency, and to allow big business to grow and monopolise their markets, eliminating 'smaller' competition in the process. They hate the EU and what it represents. For me that in itself is enough reason to appreciate why we need it; to protect us, the ordinary man and woman on the street, and ensure we are all treated equally and fairly.

I will definitely be voting IN.


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Three of the most persistent myths about the European Union


As the European Parliament elections approach, it is worth pointing out some of the myths that continue to surround the debate about the EU. The cases are taken from the UK, but apply equally throughout the EU.


EUROMYTH #1: EU SPENDING
One of the most persistent myths about the EU promoted by its critics is the cost to the UK of EU membership. The number most often put out there is £55 million per day. Granted, it can be hard to find the exact numbers, but a recent report by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.](a think-tank that wants to reform the EU) shows that the UK in 2013-14 was projected to make a contribution of about £17 billion, and that about £8 billion of EU spending would be directed at the UK (mainly on farming subsidies). So the net contribution this year is £9 billion, or £24 million per day, or about 40p per person per day.


EUROMYTH #2: EU LAW
Another of the most persistent myths about the EU – promoted by its critics and supporters alike – relates to how much UK law is made or generated by the EU. Commission president Jacques Delors started the ball rolling in 1989 when he predicted that up to 80% of national law could eventually come from EU law, and Commission Vice President Viviane Reding recently said the figure was 70% (or so reported the Daily Mail, anyway). A more objective measure is a 2010 [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]which, while noting the difficulties of saying exactly how much UK law is the result of EU requirements, puts the number at just 7%.


EUROMYTH #3: RULE FROM BRUSSELS
British critics of the EU like to argue that Britain is losing control to unelected bureaucrats in Brussels (by which they mainly mean the European Commission). While the senior staff of the Commission are indeed unelected, so are bureaucrats almost everywhere, including those in Whitehall. And those staff – as well as being appointed by the elected governments of the member states, and being subject to confirmation in their positions by the elected European Parliament, and having to report regularly to the EP – cannot make final decisions on EU law or policy. Those decisions are made by the Council of Ministers (consisting of ministers from the elected governments of the member states) and the elected EP. Furthermore, the general direction of the EU is guided by the European Council, consisting of the elected heads of government (or state) of the 28 EU member states. And all the EU institutions are accountable to the treaties and the European Court of Justice. The idea that there is a European government in Brussels with independent powers is nothing more than a myth.


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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-05-31, 7:06 pm

Not a rant H more a passionate view, however it still leaves me very undecided.


In reality each EU country elects MEP's and they decide on legislation
They may well be democraticly elected but they seem a  million miles away from me.


The IN/OUT debate is nasty and far too vitriolic, with outrageous claims by both sides so no wonder people are confused and do not know who to believe

I'm  not so much confused as sickened by them all and who do I believe, none of them.


Gut feeling may well be the wrong way to decide but I still think thats what it will come down to for me.

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  Silvers on 2016-06-01, 12:42 am

we plebs have far more human rights than we did before the  "Common Market" ...
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-06-01, 6:50 am

My prediction would be a close vote to remain in.
Neither side have done anything to convince IMO so in the end it will probably come down to,"Better the devil you know" for many.

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  Vincemac on 2016-06-01, 10:38 am

cyprussyd wrote:My prediction would be a close vote to remain in.
Neither side have done anything to convince IMO so in the end it will probably come down to,"Better the devil you know" for many.
In or out what ever the result.
It gets the government of the hook.
WELL THE PEOPLE VOTED IT DIDNT THEY NOT THE GOVERNMENTS DECISION
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  sunderpitt on 2016-06-01, 12:05 pm


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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  Mackemneil on 2016-06-01, 1:43 pm

Hieronymus wrote:How about some facts instead of myths? See article below (from 2014 but has some recent comments)

In reality each EU country elects MEP's and they decide on legislation, which cannot be enacted without the approval of these elected MEP's, and Ministers, appointed by elected governments and Heads of state of the member countries. Any bureaucracy is just like any other civil service, unelected yes, but necessary for the smooth running of an organisation the size of the EU. Does anyone really think all the thousands of civil servants working for the UK government should be elected or, if they were, it would improve law making in this country?

I agree the EU is far from perfect ( I would stop the movement between Brussels and Strasbourg for a start) but at least representatives are elected usung proportional representation, so no vote is wasted. We could go so far as to say the EU is MORE democratic than the UK, as 75% of potential voters in 2015. i.e. 3 out of every 4 of us who were eligible, did not vote for the current UK government. But we are all having to live with the consequences. 

The IN/OUT debate is nasty and far too vitriolic, with outrageous claims by both sides so no wonder people are confused and do not know who to believe. But my personal view is this is too big a decision to be made on a gut feeling. My fear is 'gut feelings' are being fuelled by the biased, emotionally charged opinions of journalists and commentators employed by right wing media moguls, who do not even live in the UK! They are peddling these EU myths (lies I would say) and stoking jingoistic nationalism among many people who feel disenfranchised by the current political system, as well as pandering to those (at the top) who are only out for themselves as a matter of course. 

I really don't want to rant (I know I am anyway Embarassed ) and this is now a long post. But please, I ask you all to consider that much of the media and Eurosceptic Tories have an agenda; to stop all regulation and requirements for tax and financial transparency, and to allow big business to grow and monopolise their markets, eliminating 'smaller' competition in the process. They hate the EU and what it represents. For me that in itself is enough reason to appreciate why we need it; to protect us, the ordinary man and woman on the street, and ensure we are all treated equally and fairly.

I will definitely be voting IN.


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Three of the most persistent myths about the European Union


As the European Parliament elections approach, it is worth pointing out some of the myths that continue to surround the debate about the EU. The cases are taken from the UK, but apply equally throughout the EU.


EUROMYTH #1: EU SPENDING
One of the most persistent myths about the EU promoted by its critics is the cost to the UK of EU membership. The number most often put out there is £55 million per day. Granted, it can be hard to find the exact numbers, but a recent report by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.](a think-tank that wants to reform the EU) shows that the UK in 2013-14 was projected to make a contribution of about £17 billion, and that about £8 billion of EU spending would be directed at the UK (mainly on farming subsidies). So the net contribution this year is £9 billion, or £24 million per day, or about 40p per person per day.


EUROMYTH #2: EU LAW
Another of the most persistent myths about the EU – promoted by its critics and supporters alike – relates to how much UK law is made or generated by the EU. Commission president Jacques Delors started the ball rolling in 1989 when he predicted that up to 80% of national law could eventually come from EU law, and Commission Vice President Viviane Reding recently said the figure was 70% (or so reported the Daily Mail, anyway). A more objective measure is a 2010 [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]which, while noting the difficulties of saying exactly how much UK law is the result of EU requirements, puts the number at just 7%.


EUROMYTH #3: RULE FROM BRUSSELS
British critics of the EU like to argue that Britain is losing control to unelected bureaucrats in Brussels (by which they mainly mean the European Commission). While the senior staff of the Commission are indeed unelected, so are bureaucrats almost everywhere, including those in Whitehall. And those staff – as well as being appointed by the elected governments of the member states, and being subject to confirmation in their positions by the elected European Parliament, and having to report regularly to the EP – cannot make final decisions on EU law or policy. Those decisions are made by the Council of Ministers (consisting of ministers from the elected governments of the member states) and the elected EP. Furthermore, the general direction of the EU is guided by the European Council, consisting of the elected heads of government (or state) of the 28 EU member states. And all the EU institutions are accountable to the treaties and the European Court of Justice. The idea that there is a European government in Brussels with independent powers is nothing more than a myth.


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Absolutely spot on!

In addition to those points, particularly democracy, I would reinforce the fact that th e current government is not representative of the general opinions and needs of people in this country. Furthermore, I would remind you all that laws in this country are developed through commons debate and drawn up by unelected high ranking civil servants and lawyers ( mostly Tory voters) and proses as bills/ laws to an unelected chamber of Lords for amendment or approval, who are even more removed from you and I than the MEPs.
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  MrRAWhite on 2016-06-01, 5:14 pm

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-06-01, 5:50 pm

MrRAWhite wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
rof

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  sunderpitt on 2016-06-01, 5:56 pm

MrRAWhite wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Perhaps it he is  a remaider taking the mickey
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  vinkel on 2016-06-01, 5:58 pm

Unless there is some late massive revelation announced, i'm out.

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  barrowmackem on 2016-06-01, 7:41 pm

Im swaying towards Brexit with all the risks that entails. Don't think either way is a perfect solution by any means.

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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  Silvers on 2016-06-01, 8:30 pm

interesting..





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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  Hieronymus on 2016-06-01, 9:02 pm

silvers wrote:interesting..





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Is this how the UK Treasury allocates central funding? So 0.37% of the UK overall spend goes to the EU? 

Nothing to do with the EU but, as an aside (on the theme of austerity), I note this shows unemployment benefit is only 0.62% as well. Shows the pointlessness of HMRC trying to save money by sanctioning people really, as it's like a drop in the ocean compared with say Health or Pensions and just persecutes those who, in the main, are unemployed through no fault of their own, and are least able to fight back. 

Compare that amount with 4.2% of 'implicit bank subsidies' (so 7 times more given to banks to bail them out than goes on ALL unemployed people in the UK!) Maybe we should have a referendum on whether we should continue those eh? Small businesses and even steel, coalmines, shipbuilding and other essential industries go to the wall and the government cannot subsidise them, yet the financial sector gets subsidised left, right and centre despite their poor governance causing the 2008 crash. Grrrrrr.....  Evil or Very Mad
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Re: The referendum, my strategy

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-06-01, 10:23 pm

Well it's now down to a choice of two, in or out

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