SunderMad
Why not join in with our small but perfectly formed community?

We are always looking for new members so sign up and join in, its free.

SOME PEOPLE SEEM TO HIT A SNAG WHEN TRYING TO REGISTER! NOT SURE WHY? IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM EMAIL ME AND I WILL SORT IT?
sundamad@aol.com
Sky Sports-SunderMad Exclusive.
2017/18

Latest topics
» Quiz 65
Today at 6:54 am by Nostalgic

» Labour Party Conference
Today at 4:19 am by canary-dave

» Bradley Lowery Foundation
Today at 4:06 am by canary-dave

» Wow...just wow.
Today at 12:51 am by Roker roar

» The clever money...
Today at 12:37 am by Roker roar

» Report: Sunderland want to sign Brentford’s Ryan Woods in January
Today at 12:33 am by Roker roar

» Thank you Brighton
Today at 12:24 am by Roker roar

» Adam & Eve
Yesterday at 8:35 pm by silvers

» Ipswich Town v Sunderland AFC
Yesterday at 4:12 pm by cyprussyd

» A bullet dodged?
Yesterday at 3:02 pm by Hieronymus

Who is online?
In total there are 12 users online :: 2 Registered, 0 Hidden and 10 Guests :: 2 Bots

Lever Malone, Nostalgic

[ View the whole list ]


Most users ever online was 328 on 2012-09-14, 11:57 am

Hillsborough

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Hillsborough

Post  sunderpitt on 2016-04-26, 11:29 am

Hillsborough inquests jury says 96 victims were unlawfully killed

Jurors also rule Liverpool fans’ behaviour at 1989 FA Cup semi-final did not contribute to disaster as verdict vindicates families



[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
 Michael Mansfield QC and relatives of the 96 arrive to hear the verdicts in Warrington. Photograph: Christopher Furlong/Getty Images
David Conn


The 96 people who died at Hillsborough in 1989 were unlawfully killed due to gross negligence manslaughter, the jury at the new inquests into the disaster has determined.
The verdict represents a vindication for the bereaved families who have fought for 27 years against South Yorkshire police claims that misbehaving supporters caused the disaster, as well as against the 1991 verdict of accidental death.
The jury decided that the behaviour of Liverpool supporters at Hillsborough did not contribute to the dangerous situation that developed outside the football ground, rejecting a claim by South Yorkshire police which the families and survivors of the disaster have relentlessly denounced as a cover-up.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Facebook[url=https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?text=Hillsborough inquests jury says 96 victims were unlawfully]Twitter[/url]Pinterest
 The Hillsborough victims. Photograph: Hillsborough Inquests/PA
Police planning errors “caused or contributed to’’ the dangerous situation that developed on the day of the Hillsborough disaster, the jury has concluded.
The families and survivors have always argued that the lethal crush at Hillsborough the stadium was due to failures by police and other organisations, and that claims of misbehaviour by supporters were aimed at deflecting blame.
The jury was returning answers to 14 questions about how the 96 people died at the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest on 15 April 1989.

The coroner, Sir John Goldring, directed the jury on Monday that they could reach a majority decision on the unlawful killing question after he was told last week that the jurors were unanimously decided on the 13 other questions.

[size=16]Live Hillsborough disaster inquest rules 96 victims were unlawfully killed – live updates[/size]
Jury set to decide about possible police blame and other factors in the April 1989 crush during the Liverpool v Nottingham Forest FA Cup semi-final. 



The victims’ families, who have spent decades campaigning for justice, packed the makeshift coroner’s court on the Birchwood business park in Warrington to hear the jury of three men and six women deliver its determinations on Tuesday. 
Many relatives of the 96 have attended almost every day of the inquests, which started on 1 April 2014 and, having lasted two years, are by far the longest ever heard by a jury in British legal history.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Facebook[url=https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?text=Hillsborough inquests jury says 96 victims were unlawfully]Twitter[/url]Pinterest
 Anfield marks the 27th anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster. Photograph: Christopher Furlong/Getty Images
The 96 victims – who were aged 10-67 and included 37 teenagers and 26 parents – died following a crush in the central “pens” of the Leppings Lane terrace at Sheffield Wednesday’s Hillsborough ground. 
At the time, South Yorkshire police, who were responsible for the safety of the 54,000 people at the semi-final, denied any mistakes or responsibility and instead claimed that they had been overwhelmed by drunk, late and ticketless Liverpool supporters.
The families have battled ever since to counter the police’s case and to see accountability for the failures that caused the deaths. Lord Justice Taylor, in his official August 1989 report, blamed police mismanagement of the event for the disaster, and criticised the force for seeking to deflect blame on to supporters. 

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


 Foto showing overcrowding at the 1989 FA Cup semi-final at Hillsborough. Photograph: David Giles/PA
However, at the first inquest, held in Sheffield between November 1990 and March 1991 – at the time the longest inquest in British history – South Yorkshire police made their case again and the jury returned a verdict of accidental death.
The families campaigned to have that inquest quashed but were turned down by the divisional court in 1993. Three judges finally overturned the inquest after 21 years, in December 2012, following the landmark publication of a report by the Hillsborough Independent Panel.
Two major investigations overseen by the Independent Police Complaints Commission are continuing into possible criminal offences committed by police officers and others leading to the 96 deaths, and alleged perjury and perverting the course of justice by police officers in the campaign to blame supporters.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


 A relative holds a photograph as he arrives to hear the jury deliver its verdict. Photograph: Andrew Yates/Reuters
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Hillsborough victims: the 96 people whose lives were cut short




Goldring’s legal direction to the jury was that to reach a verdict of unlawful killing, they had to be satisfied that the South Yorkshire police officer in charge of the event, Ch Supt David Duckenfield, “was responsible for manslaughter by gross negligence of those 96 people”. 
For gross negligence to be proved, Goldring told the jury that they must be sure Duckenfield breached his duty of care to the people attending the semi-final, and that his breach “was so bad, having regard to the risk of death involved, as in your view to amount to a criminal act or omission”.
The guidance on the question about Liverpool fans’ behaviour at the approach to the turnstiles allowing entry to the Leppings Lane standing area said the jury should consider whether the supporters were unusually forceful or resistant to police control, whether significant numbers did not have tickets, their arrival pattern and behaviour. Goldring told the jury in his summing up that this was a controversial issue.
avatar
sunderpitt
Number Cruncher
Number Cruncher

Posts : 6040
Join date : 2012-08-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  sunderpitt on 2016-04-26, 11:35 am

Hillsborough stories: Joseph Daniel McCarthy

  • 26 April 2014
     
  • From the section England


[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
A student from London who was studying in Sheffield, Joseph McCarthy met some friends before the match. 
This is the full statement to the inquests from his cousin, Anthony Goggins:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Joseph Daniel McCarthy was born on 11 February 1968 and died at the age of 21 years. 
Joseph, who was known as Joe, was born to Sean and Anne McCarthy, two years after their eldest son, Jeremy, was born. Sean and Anne had just the two boys. 
His parents worked extremely hard to ensure that both Jeremy and Joe had an excellent education. Joe was a typical boy; he often got into harmless mischief, but had an endearing personality that it was easy to forgive him for whatever wrongdoing he did.
His mum Anne said that he could "charm the birds from the trees with his chat".
Joe was born in Ealing, London, and attended Mount Carmel Roman Catholic Primary School. Joe's mum and dad were deeply involved in their church and community, and Joe and Jeremy were involved in all church activities.

[size=16]Who were the 96 victims?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[size=13]Profiles of all those who died
[/size]

Joe was a natural leader, confident without being arrogant. 
He started winning sports awards from the age of seven, coming first place in numerous sports events held at Mount Carmel. 

'Football success'

He was an all-round sportsperson and liked nothing better than training for either a swimming certificate or a long jump or even cricket ball throwing.
Joe loved being outdoors playing any kind of sport, although football was his favourite.
He was on the Mount Carmel football team, which was part of the Ealing Schools Football Association and Joe practised really hard with his football team to win each year in the competition, yet when they became the runners up, he was still overjoyed, something his mum recalled years later to me. 
When Joe became captain of the team, they won the competition. It was the first time that the middle school had won a trophy since joining the ESFA in 1973.
Joe was so proud that the team won the cup and would not take any of the credit himself, laughing and joking about it, saying it was all luck. 
He was a Beaver Scout and could not wait to become a Cub Scout and then a Scout. His brother Jeremy and himself were very keen Scout members and won many cups for their Scout pack.

'Gymnastics award'



[/size]
He was genuinely a lovely human being, full of joy with a zest for life. We all miss himAnthony Goggins, Cousin
[size]

In 1977, when Joe was just nine-years-old, the Scout pack won the Ealing five-a-side league and then added the knock-out cup to their triumph. Joe really liked to win, but was also a great loser.
Joe was entering gymnastics competitions from a very early age and won The Sunday Times British Amateur Gymnastics award for his age group.
Academically, Joe was clever. He did not find school difficult, he enjoyed going to school and he was a great communicator and loved the interaction that took place at school, both with teachers and peers alike. 
He found all subjects easy and Anne and Sean were always at home to help with the boys' homework. They encouraged both boys to study and avail of their education.
Joe gained entrance into the most prestigious non-fee paying Roman Catholic secondary school in London, Cardinal Vaughan. This was due to his excellent academic ability and the fact that his parents were devout Roman Catholics. 

'Loved to travel'

Joe was more concerned about Cardinal Vaughan having a good football team and sports programme than the academic results they obtained each year. He enjoyed his years at Cardinal Vaughan and he was very popular at school.
He was captain of the first XI football team; he was a member of the cricket team; he was also a school prefect and chairman of both the debating society and the economic/business society.
Anne and Sean used to take Joe and Jeremy on holidays to Europe, to various parts of England, including Devon, the Isle of Wight, Bath, and of course to Ireland. Joe loved to travel and collect postcards of where he had visited so that the whole family could relive the memory of the wonderful holidays they had together. 
Joe also travelled extensively in Europe and loved fashion, taking a very keen interest in French and Italian fashion houses. He was a dapper dresser and loved to be ahead of fashion.

'Good guy'

Joe obtained his A-levels and decided to study for a BA (Hons) in Business Studies at Sheffield University.
I came from Ireland to live with my Aunt Anne and Uncle Sean when I was 17-years-old. I knew my cousins Joe and Jeremy from summer holidays. 
Joe and I became firm friends. We both had similar interests, football of course being the main one. We both enjoyed going out to clubs as we also loved the same type of music. 
Joe was popular with all the girls he met, but once he met Penny, he had eyes for no-one else.
Joe was one of life's good guys. He was genuinely a lovely human being, full of joy with a zest for life. We all miss him.


This is the lad and family I knew, we bought our house in Ealing off his parents. He went to same senior school as my son. His death left his parents absolutely shattered....When we were first looking round the house ( we eventually bought) he was there telling us about the Liverpool posters he had in his bedroom[/size]
avatar
sunderpitt
Number Cruncher
Number Cruncher

Posts : 6040
Join date : 2012-08-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-04-26, 1:16 pm

A cover up on a monumental scale.

Now prosecutions must follow and quick

________________________________________________________
          My glass is always half full and occasionally over flowing. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
avatar
cyprussyd
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 42134
Join date : 2012-07-31
Age : 68
Location : Durham

http://www.sunderlandmad.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  silvers on 2016-04-26, 1:21 pm

..and compensation no doubt.........
avatar
silvers
Global Moderator
Global Moderator

Posts : 14756
Join date : 2012-08-02
Age : 70
Location : Whickham

http://www.newdawncp.co.uk/about-us/

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  sunderpitt on 2016-04-26, 1:31 pm

silvers wrote:..and compensation no doubt.........

Will be interesting toes what happens about that..

I also read that the infamous South Yorkshire police have been let off over what they did during the Miners Strike....A Police Fore that did not serve the public very well
avatar
sunderpitt
Number Cruncher
Number Cruncher

Posts : 6040
Join date : 2012-08-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  silvers on 2016-04-26, 1:39 pm

No place to hide on this one !
avatar
silvers
Global Moderator
Global Moderator

Posts : 14756
Join date : 2012-08-02
Age : 70
Location : Whickham

http://www.newdawncp.co.uk/about-us/

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  sunderpitt on 2016-04-26, 2:51 pm


Their protests fell on deaf ears in Thatcher's office, if this 1996 letter from Ingham to Hillsborough justice campaigners is anything to go by:

 

[size=21]View image on Twitter[/size]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

[size=19]Follow[/size]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Chris McCall [size=19]‎@Dennynews[/size]

A reminder of the letter Sir Bernard Ingham, Margaret Thatcher's press secretary, sent to Hillsborough campaigners.

[size=19]11:38 AM - 26 Apr 2016[/size]

         3,353[size=21] 3,353 Retweets
887 887 likes[/size]
avatar
sunderpitt
Number Cruncher
Number Cruncher

Posts : 6040
Join date : 2012-08-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-04-26, 4:57 pm

I'm afraid blaming Thatcher, IMO is wrong. Only one politician stood up to be counted. Andy Burnham.

________________________________________________________
          My glass is always half full and occasionally over flowing. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
avatar
cyprussyd
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 42134
Join date : 2012-07-31
Age : 68
Location : Durham

http://www.sunderlandmad.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  canary-dave on 2016-04-26, 6:21 pm

As a former police officer, albeit in a different force, this leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. There was undoubtedly an attempted cover-up, the whole situation was overseen by a newly promoted Superintendent on his very first mission and was clearly completely out of his depth. I think it's unfair to lump ALL the blame on him, but he obviously takes the lion's  share

________________________________________________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
avatar
canary-dave
Admin Spammer Swatter

Posts : 13380
Join date : 2012-08-01
Age : 69
Location : Weston-super-Mare

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  sunderpitt on 2016-04-26, 6:31 pm

canary-dave wrote:As a former police officer, albeit in a different force, this leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. There was undoubtedly an attempted cover-up, the whole situation was overseen by a newly promoted Superintendent on his very first mission and was clearly completely out of his depth. I think it's unfair to lump ALL the blame on him, but he obviously takes the lion's  share

The ground with the standing and barriers was asking for trouble. I was at the Sunderland semi-final in 73, it was very unsafe. Then inept crowd control made it worse...then to lie about what happened and say it was the supporters fault to cover criminally poor policing and to do that for years rubs salt into a wound. Charges should be brought...those responsible have to be brought to book.
avatar
sunderpitt
Number Cruncher
Number Cruncher

Posts : 6040
Join date : 2012-08-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  Nostalgic on 2016-04-26, 9:58 pm

There is a lot more to this than the police error in deviating from the usual two ring filter around the ground. Counterfeit tickets swelled the numbers travelling from Liverpool, football crowd behaviour over the previous two decades at least, the affect a delayed crowd would have in around the streets at the ground. Slow turnstiles and the decision to open the bigger gates and hopefully trusting the crowd to conduct themselves properly.

There was a variety of contributing events that led to this but the police were the front line and they had to make a decisiion at rapid speed to avert something and they chose the wrong one. The aftermath via politicians and newspapers exacerbated the emotion and they led to today.

If I was going to make a comparison to police behaviour today then it would be about a joy rider killing himself and others but the police would be t fault for chasing them. In the end there are no winners or losers here as it stopped being about the 96 but more about the fine people of Liverpool.

Nostalgic
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 3515
Join date : 2012-08-06
Age : 79
Location : Auckland NZ

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  Black Cat Kiwi on 2016-04-27, 1:23 am

Nostalgic wrote:There is a lot more to this than the police error in deviating from the usual two ring filter around the ground. Counterfeit tickets swelled the numbers travelling from Liverpool, football crowd behaviour over the previous two decades at least, the affect a delayed crowd would have in around the streets at the ground. Slow turnstiles and the decision to open the bigger gates and hopefully trusting the crowd to conduct themselves properly.

There was a variety of contributing events that led to this but the police were the front line and they had to make a decisiion at rapid speed to avert something and they chose the wrong one. The aftermath via politicians and newspapers exacerbated the emotion and they led to today.

If I was going to make a comparison to police behaviour today then it would be about a joy rider killing himself and others but the police would be t fault for chasing them. In the end there are no winners or losers here as it stopped being about the 96 but more about the fine people of Liverpool.
 Nicely put Nos  like

________________________________________________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]                         [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
                                
avatar
Black Cat Kiwi
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 9330
Join date : 2012-08-01
Age : 99
Location : Godzone

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  sunderpitt on 2016-04-27, 8:22 am

An anology for me is that if you are Jewish you have to put up with the lie about the so called 'blood libel'.

If you are a Liverpool supporter you have to put up with the lie it was drunken yobs that caused the death of the 96.

The fact that the Sun and Times did not have the verdict on the front page today...just shows Murdoch and his minions are truly like. Mackenzie should be called for the appalling journo he is.
avatar
sunderpitt
Number Cruncher
Number Cruncher

Posts : 6040
Join date : 2012-08-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  canary-dave on 2016-04-27, 12:00 pm

sunderpitt wrote:An anology for me is that if you are Jewish you have to put up with the lie about the so called 'blood libel'.

If you are a Liverpool supporter you have to put up with the lie it was drunken yobs that caused the death of the 96.

The fact that the Sun and Times did not have the verdict on the front page today...just shows Murdoch and his minions are truly like. Mackenzie should be called for the appalling journo he is.

like

________________________________________________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
avatar
canary-dave
Admin Spammer Swatter

Posts : 13380
Join date : 2012-08-01
Age : 69
Location : Weston-super-Mare

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  silvers on 2016-04-27, 12:15 pm

I recall the 'crush' against barriers at Roker Park with folks at the back just pushing folks forward to get more room for themselves..

In hindsight I'm surprised there weren't many more tragedies at matches in general.

And of course, this is why we now have all-seated stadia/stadiums
avatar
silvers
Global Moderator
Global Moderator

Posts : 14756
Join date : 2012-08-02
Age : 70
Location : Whickham

http://www.newdawncp.co.uk/about-us/

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-04-28, 5:23 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

________________________________________________________
          My glass is always half full and occasionally over flowing. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
avatar
cyprussyd
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 42134
Join date : 2012-07-31
Age : 68
Location : Durham

http://www.sunderlandmad.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  leothelion on 2016-04-28, 7:25 am

I recall the appalling behaviour of our Sunderland supporters at the 1964 replay against Man Utd-the rush into the empty Roker end, ended with a massive overspill onto the pitch. Unfortunately you couldnt escape the crush at Hillsbroogh. I,ve been in many crushes-and I dont recall the police ever been the blame for any of them.
avatar
leothelion
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 216
Join date : 2015-03-16
Age : 76
Location : Aldridge near Birmingham

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  Nostalgic on 2016-04-28, 8:15 am

This is such an emotive subject that it is difficult to feel empathy with either the authorities and the Liverpool supporters other than the families who lost people that day. Political issue was made of the event before the full facts were known and the actions that followed have turned into a witch hunt on one side or another. Supporters have used the memories of the tradegy to whip up sympathy for their own ends.

I can empathise with the police because had they delayed the thousands much longer the fan behaviour at the time would well have turned into a street riot, and they would have been vilified for that as well.

At the same time I am a bit puzzled as to why the supporters are so determined to get a verdict of illegal killing issued, albeit with a 7-5 jury verdict. They are reported as now going to pursue prosecution of the S Yorks Police which seems to be more than vindictive since they have won their case.  I just hope that there is not pound note signs in their eyes in compensation claims for their loss. They have won and deserve praise for so doing but the history of the LFC supporters behaviour in the ten years previous to Hillsborough does not bear scrutiny.

Heyzell is conveniently forgotten, and even in the final when they had won the FA cup some of their supporters invaded the pitch as the fences had been removed by then. Only time I have heard booing at the end of a cup final.

Nostalgic
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 3515
Join date : 2012-08-06
Age : 79
Location : Auckland NZ

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  canary-dave on 2016-04-28, 11:28 am

Nostalgic wrote:This is such an emotive subject that it is difficult to feel empathy with either the authorities and the Liverpool supporters other than the families who lost people that day. Political issue was made of the event before the full facts were known and the actions that followed have turned into a witch hunt on one side or another. Supporters have used the memories of the tradegy to whip up sympathy for their own ends.

I can empathise with the police because had they delayed the thousands much longer the fan behaviour at the time would well have turned into a street riot, and they would have been vilified for that as well.

At the same time I am a bit puzzled as to why the supporters are so determined to get a verdict of illegal killing issued, albeit with a 7-5 jury verdict. They are reported as now going to pursue prosecution of the S Yorks Police which seems to be more than vindictive since they have won their case.  I just hope that there is not pound note signs in their eyes in compensation claims for their loss. They have won and deserve praise for so doing but the history of the LFC supporters behaviour in the ten years previous to Hillsborough does not bear scrutiny.

Heyzell is conveniently forgotten, and even in the final when they had won the FA cup some of their supporters invaded the pitch as the fences had been removed by then. Only time I have heard booing at the end of a cup final.

Nos, firstly it was a 7-2 majority verdict, the jury was only 9 strong, secondly, the S. Yorks. Police lied time and again to try and cover up their failings. I think the families are owed a lot of compensation for their losses!

________________________________________________________
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
avatar
canary-dave
Admin Spammer Swatter

Posts : 13380
Join date : 2012-08-01
Age : 69
Location : Weston-super-Mare

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  cyprussyd on 2016-04-29, 5:32 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

________________________________________________________
          My glass is always half full and occasionally over flowing. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
avatar
cyprussyd
Senior Member(Top Cat)
Senior Member(Top Cat)

Posts : 42134
Join date : 2012-07-31
Age : 68
Location : Durham

http://www.sunderlandmad.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Hillsborough

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum