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Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

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Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  cyprussyd on 2015-12-01, 12:18 pm

Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand


David Cameron has urged MPs to back him over military intervention in Syria against so-called Islamic State extremists.
The prime minister set out what he called a "comprehensive case" before taking questions from 103 MPs over two hours and 40 minutes in the Commons last week.
He set out his response to the Commons Foreign Affairs Committee, which had warned the government against pressing ahead with air strikes.
MPs rejected air strikes against Syrian government targets in 2013. This time around, the PM said there would not be a Commons vote unless there was a clear majority for action, saying a government defeat would "hand a publicity coup" to IS.
Following the Paris attacks earlier this month, some MPs' minds are said to have changed and Mr Cameron has called a debate and vote for Wednesday - so where do the parties stand?

The Conservative Party

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Image copyrightPA
The majority of Conservative MPs would vote to back extending UK air strikes against Islamic State targets in Syria.
Thirty Conservative MPs[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], when the Commons rejected his first attempt to launch bombing raids on Syria - albeit against the Assad regime rather than IS.
A number of MPs who defied their party then - including Charles Walker and Andrew Bridgen - now say they will support the government, Mr Walker suggesting there was "no room for delay" in taking the fight to the extremists.
One of the 2013 rebels told the BBC they predicted about 15 Conservatives would still oppose any kind of intervention, arguing that bombing could be open-ended and will not help achieve a political solution to the civil war in Syria.
Tory MP Julian Lewis - who chairs the Commons Defence Select Committee - told the BBC IS could not be defeated militarily unless Western powers worked with the Syrian regime.
Total number of Conservative MPs: 331
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The Labour Party

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Labour is split on Syria. Party leader Jeremy Corbyn, until recently chairman of the Stop the War Coalition, has [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] saying he does not back Mr Cameron's case for air strikes.
With at least half of his shadow cabinet believed to be in favour of intervention, this letter generated an angry reaction from some on his front bench, with one member warning of resignations if Mr Corbyn tried to impose his view on the party when it comes to the vote.
The party leadership also asked for people to email their views on Syria bombing and claimed that 75% of the 100,000 who responded opposed the bombing.
After what was apparently a stormy shadow cabinet meeting on Monday, the Labour leader has offered a free vote on the issue - which means his MPs won't be instructed to vote in a certain way. BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg said that, as of Tuesday, around 50 Labour MPs had indicated they were likely to vote for Syria bombing.
Total number of Labour MPs: 231
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The Scottish National Party

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The SNP opposed military action in 2013 but has vastly increased its Westminster presence since the general election and can exert real influence.
The party says it will not support air strikes in Syria unless the prime minister is able to address "key questions" that "remain unanswered".
Angus Robertson, the SNP's Westminster leader, said there was no effective ground support in place to take and hold territory.
And he said there was no fully-costed reconstruction plan in place for Syria.
He added: "The prime minister has asked us to consider his plan. We have listened closely. However, key questions posed by the Foreign Affairs Select Committee remain unanswered.
"And unless the prime minister answers these questions satisfactorily, the Scottish National Party will not vote for airstrikes in Syria."
Total number of SNP MPs: 54
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The Liberal Democrats

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Lib Dem leader Tim Farron has welcomed the UN resolution but indicated the government must do a lot more before counting on his party's support.
In the Common, he said the PM would have to provide "much more evidence" that moderate forces on the ground had the required "capability and the credibility".
He later told BBC News Mr Cameron had made "a strong case" for air strikes but that he still had a number of questions. The party has yet to make its view clear ahead of Wednesday's debate.
Total number of Lib Dem MPs: 8
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The Democratic Unionist Party

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Image captionNigel Dodds said voters across the UK need to know where the DUP stands on issues
The Democratic Unionist Party, along with the SDLP and the UUP, helped to sink David Cameron's last attempt to launch air strikes in Syria, with five of its MPs voting against the move and three absent.
But DUP Westminster leader Nigel Dodds has suggested his party could take a different view this time around, saying he and his colleagues will "do the right thing for our nation's security, whatever that might entail".
In the Commons, he again said the DUP would "put national security first" but did not specify which way his party would vote.
"Parliament must reflect soberly and well on the responsibility lying on it over the next few days," he added.
Total number of DUP MPs: 8
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Plaid Cymru

Voted against military action last time and would be expected to do so again. Party leader Leanne Wood said her party would "listen very carefully" to Mr Cameron's case for air strikes. During the Commons debate, the party's Westminster leader Hywel Williams said all other options should be considered before MPs are asked to vote on military action,
Total number of Plaid Cymru MPs: 3
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UK Independence Party

UKIP's MP Douglas Carswell voted with the government in 2013, when he was a Conservative MP, despite [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] about its lack of a "coherent strategy" in Syria. But UKIP has been consistent in its opposition to further military action.
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Green Party

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Image copyrightJeff overs/BBC
The Green Party's only MP Caroline Lucas has confirmed she will vote against military action in Syria on the evidence presented so far, describing the case presented by Mr Cameron as "neither comprehensive nor compelling".
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Social Democratic and Labour Party (SDLP)

The party's MPs voted against military intervention in 2013 and have again expressed reservations.
Total number of SDLP MPs: 3
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Ulster Unionists

The party's two MPs have met Prime Minister David Cameron to discuss his plan for air strikes and have said any action should be "thought out" and "targeted" with a clear exit strategy.[/size]

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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  sunderpitt on 2015-12-01, 1:17 pm

Personally I agree wholeheartedly that ISIS has to be eliminated.

My problem is that I do not see how us joining others in bombing Syria advances that necessity. It seems more about Cameron wanting to join in the strutting club of leaders saying they are doing something
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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  cyprussyd on 2015-12-01, 3:21 pm

sunderpitt wrote:Personally I agree wholeheartedly that ISIS has to be eliminated.

My problem is that I do not see how us joining others in bombing Syria advances that necessity. It seems more about Cameron wanting to join in the strutting club of leaders saying they are doing something
And that's where I am Sunderds, people ask me what I would do if not bomb and I simply dont know but,

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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  sunderpitt on 2015-12-01, 3:37 pm

New pictures show Russia using a controversial incendiary weapon that can kill through poisoning and burning to bomb Raqqa, Syria, a so-called stronghold of Isis.
Russian forces are using deadly white phosphorus to bomb the terror group’s de-facto capital, according to reports.
The pictures were posted to Twitter by user Moonnor27, whose bio says she is a Muslim Iraqi who ‘helps innocent civilians’. The pictures are yet to be verified.
She posted the pictures along with the caption: ‘To protect the devil (Syrian President) Assad, #Russianairstrikes using phosphorous bombs on #Raqqa #warcrimes’.

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(Picture: Twitter/Moonnor27)
Under international law, the use of the highly flammable chemical, known as WP, is banned in densely populated areas as it is reportedly highly toxic and can burn through skin and bone.
On Sunday, a group of citizen journalists from the Raqqa is Being Slaughtered Silently network said there were reports ‘that air strikes targeted Raqqa today with phosphorus’ munitions.
It is believed to be the first reported use of the chemical in air strikes on Raqqa since Russian and French air forces begun heavy bombing in the area.
The news comes as Vladimir Putin and Barack Obama met for about 30 minutes at a summit in Paris today where they discussed the Syria and Ukraine crises, a Kremlin spokesman reportedly said.


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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  cyprussyd on 2015-12-01, 3:47 pm

sunderpitt wrote:New pictures show Russia using a controversial incendiary weapon that can kill through poisoning and burning to bomb Raqqa, Syria, a so-called stronghold of Isis.
Russian forces are using deadly white phosphorus to bomb the terror group’s de-facto capital, according to reports.
The pictures were posted to Twitter by user Moonnor27, whose bio says she is a Muslim Iraqi who ‘helps innocent civilians’. The pictures are yet to be verified.
She posted the pictures along with the caption: ‘To protect the devil (Syrian President) Assad, #Russianairstrikes using phosphorous bombs on #Raqqa #warcrimes’.

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(Picture: Twitter/Moonnor27)
Under international law, the use of the highly flammable chemical, known as WP, is banned in densely populated areas as it is reportedly highly toxic and can burn through skin and bone.
On Sunday, a group of citizen journalists from the Raqqa is Being Slaughtered Silently network said there were reports ‘that air strikes targeted Raqqa today with phosphorus’ munitions.
It is believed to be the first reported use of the chemical in air strikes on Raqqa since Russian and French air forces begun heavy bombing in the area.
The news comes as Vladimir Putin and Barack Obama met for about 30 minutes at a summit in Paris today where they discussed the Syria and Ukraine crises, a Kremlin spokesman reportedly said.


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and that for me could be the tragedy behind the bombing

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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  Hieronymus on 2015-12-01, 3:58 pm

cyprussyd wrote:
sunderpitt wrote:Personally I agree wholeheartedly that ISIS has to be eliminated.

My problem is that I do not see how us joining others in bombing Syria advances that necessity. It seems more about Cameron wanting to join in the strutting club of leaders saying they are doing something
And that's where I am Sunderds, people ask me what I would do if not bomb and I simply dont know but,
It has to come down to boots on the ground unfortunately; granted with air support, but not 'targeted' bombing which is likely to kill more civilians and create reasons for victims families to learn to hate the UK and the West. 

Of course this may mean UK soldiers putting their lives on the line, but I cannot see any other way to ensure civilian casualties are minimised, and to get the anti-ISIS 'rebels' trained and better supported. The problem with this approach is we have a run down, exhausted army, no aircraft carriers and only HMS Ocean capable of helicopter landings. I wonder which government agreed to all these military cuts eh?

We should also be doing all the other things that Jeremy Corbyn and others are saying, including cutting off ISIS supply lines and financing, with UN sanctions for those countries that do not comply (yes, Saudi Arabia I am looking at you!). And then we need a plan to build the peace in Syria and the surrounding areas, and not leave a power vacuum as happened in Iraq. This will involve working with Assad, as distasteful as that may be.  Crying or Very sad

Anyone know what the UN is for these days?
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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  barrowmackem on 2015-12-03, 8:34 am

Well war it is!!! agree 100% with the decision but let's not kid ourselves there will be a price to pay be it putting our air force lads and lasses in danger, innocent people on the ground in danger and main land Britain no doubt a target. This evil has to be taken on head on or it will spread worldwide.
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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  cyprussyd on 2015-12-03, 10:09 am

barrowmackem wrote:Well war it is!!! agree 100% with the decision but let's not kid ourselves there will be a price to pay be it putting our air force lads and lasses in danger, innocent people on the ground in danger and main land Britain no doubt a target. This evil has to be taken on head on or it will spread worldwide.
Agree with the last bit but against the bombing because I am not convinced it is anything more than a political gesture.

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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  barrowmackem on 2015-12-03, 10:24 am

cyprussyd wrote:
barrowmackem wrote:Well war it is!!! agree 100% with the decision but let's not kid ourselves there will be a price to pay be it putting our air force lads and lasses in danger, innocent people on the ground in danger and main land Britain no doubt a target. This evil has to be taken on head on or it will spread worldwide.
Agree with the last bit but against the bombing because I am not convinced it is anything more than a political gesture.
so how would you take it on head on then Syd?
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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  sunderpitt on 2015-12-03, 10:34 am

Well I doubt I would qualify as a peacenik as I am the proud possessor of a Free Marine 'A' tee shirt. But frankly I just not get what extra we bring to the bombing party that is not already being done. It seems that Cameron just wants to sit on the top table and swan around in his jet.

What will kill off Daesh..ground troops backed by air power. Also stopping them getting arms and selling their (sic) oil. Bombing will do very little of that. As surely most of it has been done in the last year or so...therefore it is just just gesture politics. The people who live in Raqqa are not happy with Daesh as they kill men, rape woman and take over houses, there will be no more that say 8,000 killers in that city is it okay to have as collateral damage 200,000 people to kill a few thousand? Bombing the city will just give Dash recruits.
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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  cyprussyd on 2015-12-03, 10:37 am

barrowmackem wrote:
cyprussyd wrote:
barrowmackem wrote:Well war it is!!! agree 100% with the decision but let's not kid ourselves there will be a price to pay be it putting our air force lads and lasses in danger, innocent people on the ground in danger and main land Britain no doubt a target. This evil has to be taken on head on or it will spread worldwide.
Agree with the last bit but against the bombing because I am not convinced it is anything more than a political gesture.
so how would you take it on head on then Syd?
I dont have an answer mate just not convinced bombing will do any good

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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  barrowmackem on 2015-12-03, 12:42 pm

cyprussyd wrote:
barrowmackem wrote:
cyprussyd wrote:
barrowmackem wrote:Well war it is!!! agree 100% with the decision but let's not kid ourselves there will be a price to pay be it putting our air force lads and lasses in danger, innocent people on the ground in danger and main land Britain no doubt a target. This evil has to be taken on head on or it will spread worldwide.
Agree with the last bit but against the bombing because I am not convinced it is anything more than a political gesture.
so how would you take it on head on then Syd?
I dont have an answer mate just not convinced bombing will do any good
troops on the ground then Syd? which could happen anyway.
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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  cyprussyd on 2015-12-03, 1:35 pm

The other Benn speach
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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  Hieronymus on 2015-12-03, 2:44 pm

cyprussyd wrote:The other Benn speech
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Quite - he must have been doing somersaults in his grave last night. Mind it was a vey powerful speech, have to give Hilary that, but his father would have profoundly disagreed with him.

As I said yesterday, troops on the ground, supported by air power, is the only way forward. Plus intelligence initiatives to seek out the Daesh leaders, and finally cutting off financial and military support at source. All done under the UN banner, as a unified international response, not individual countries being afraid they will be talked about if they don't come to the party. Mad
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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  cyprussyd on 2015-12-04, 4:57 am

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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  canary-dave on 2015-12-04, 5:21 am

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What vicious thugs they are!   Twisted Evil

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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  sunderpitt on 2015-12-04, 2:10 pm

[size=68]F[/size]ive year-old Raghat loved singing, nail polish, teasing her toddler sister, the alphabet she was starting to learn at nursery, and goofing for the camera. In the last photos of her, taken barely ten minutes before the Russian bombs landed, she shows off a new bracelet and freshly painted nails with glee, then squeezes a kiss from her squirming baby sister.
“I only took my children back to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] for six days,” says her mother, Suheer, her eyes welling up as she plays a video on her smart phone, bringing a shadow of her daughter momentarily back to life. Her son Hossein, only four himself, leans in to smooth away her tears. Too young to really understand why his sister has vanished, he comforts his mother with a soft patter of “mummy, no, mummy”.

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Ministers say it could take two years to destroy Isis

 
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Raghat now lies miles away, across the Turkish border in Syria, buried in the town of Habeet, near Idlib, where she died in October alongside her grandfather and her cousin, Ahmad. When the attack finished she was found wrapped in Ahmad’s arms. A 28-year-old maths teacher, he had tried to race her to shelter when the first bomb fell. 
They made it to a small dugout in the garden, but a bomb landed just beside the entrance, and Ahmad’s body was not a strong enough shield. Raghat survived the first blast, but died on the back of a motorbike, as her family raced her to hospital. “We were supposed to be going home the next day,” Suheer says. “My husband never saw his daughter again.”
The family are one of hundreds ripped apart by more than two months of intense Russian bombing raids on opponents of President Bashar al-Assad, which victims and fighters say have strayed far behind frontlines. Coalition airstrikes led by the United States have also killed civilians, but have stricter rules of engagement. There have been no reports of civilian casualties from the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] by British Tornado jets this week. 
Syrians say that Russians are not only reckless about choosing targets, but also appear to be intentionally bombing some civilian areas.

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 Raghat before the bombing. Photograph: Family Photo
Survivors, doctors treating the injured, and local commanders believe the Sukhoi jets, flying from a[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], are hitting homes in a deliberate campaign to break fighters’ morale and depopulate swathes of the countryside.
“They are targeting the civilians at night, and mostly frontlines during the day,” says Abu Hussain, a Turkmen rebel commander, a high-rank defector from the Syrian army. “It’s because they don’t want anyone to film the jets bombing at night, so you can’t prove their identity.”
That matches images and accounts of the airstrike on Raghat’s house, which her brother says began moments after 9pm on 1 October. In one of her last photos, she holds a lit torch, and video he says was shot soon after the bombing shows flames raging through the house against a dark sky.
Russian airstrikes killed at least 295 Syrian civilians in October alone, according to monitoring group [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], which has a network of reporters inside the country and keeps an [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] of images, videos, reports and biographies of the dead.
“Based on all field reporting, the number of alleged civilian casualties attributed to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is many times what we see being claimed against the US-led coalition,” says Chris Woods, who runs the Airwars project.
“We think the primary reason here that the casualties are so high is the type of munitions that Russia is using, mostly ‘dumb bombs’ which almost always mean more civilian deaths. That is closely followed by where and how Russia is bombing. There is no doubt that Russia is bombing civilian neighbourhoods.”
Their assessment of the strike on Habeet matched Raghat’s family’s account, and ties in with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] of bombing raids in the area, they say. A Syrian monitoring group also confirmed details of the attack, and a prominent human rights activist still working inside Syria videotaped the aftermath and photographed the little girl’s body.

The family, who asked for their surname to be withheld to protect relatives still in Syria, didn’t expect a bombing raid even though Russian planes had been buzzing around the area for four days, apparently doing surveillance. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]would be targeting “terrorist groups”, and the family’s home was more than 60 miles (97km) from the nearest Isis forces.

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At least 18 people killed in Russian airstrike on town in Syria – reports

 
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Even as it became clear that Russian planes were more focused on tackling Assad’s allies than Isis, the frontline was still several miles away. It would take days for civilians to realise they were firmly in the bombers’ sights, because of confusion about targets and the slow and unreliable trickle of news out of Syria.
Many working in overwhelmed hospitals, providing relief or ferrying the worst injured across the border into Turkey, fear the deaths have barely registered in western capitals obsessed with tackling Isis, and almost oblivious to the civilian deaths caused by Russian bombing.
“Its been 48 days with no one talking about it,” says Abu Hamza Suleiyman, a doctor at a Syrian field hospital near the town of Jisr al-Shughur, another area targeted by Russian bombers. “There are almost no civilians left in their homes because they bombed almost every single village.
“I could understand the frontline, but the civilians? One landed just outside a maternity hospital. This is the worst experience in the last four years. I’m from a small village in these mountains, and for ages no one has bombed this village, but when the Russians started bombing they hit every single village.”
The killings already appear to be entrenching the war and fuelling radicalisation. Anti-Assad fighters seeking revenge and disturbed by the flagging strength of their own groups, seek to ally with opposition forces that are well-supplied and confident in Syria – among them Isis.
“Isis are not very good, but a lot of people think they are doing the correct thing against the regime,” says Raghat’s older brother Ali, a fighter with the Free Syrian Army whose two younger brothers now want to join him on the frontlines to avenge their family. 
Ali, who was not at home when the strike hit, fears other families may look for even more radical solutions. “There is no Isis in our area at all, but there is going to be soon.”
Their grandfather, 56 year-old Abdul Razzaq, was one of the first civilian victims of the Russian raids, hit in the Habeet strike as he tried to race down from the top storey of the house. Most of the family were already downstairs and managed to dash to safety, leaving only Raghat, her cousin and 49 year-old grandmother Zahra, who had been in another part of the house and decided to head for the dugout in the yard.
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 Ali, the older brother of Raghat, at his temporary home on the Turkish border. Photograph: David Gill
As they fled, a shell landed just behind Zahra, knocking her to the ground, destroying her hearing and peppering her with shrapnel. It nearly killed her, but probably also saved her life, because just as Ahmad and Raghat thought they had reached safety, another blast hit the shelter directly.
Zahra’s search for treatment took a long, painful night of racing across northern Syria, on roads so bad she broke an arm, because some hospitals have been [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and others are overwhelmed by casualties of the bombings.

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'More than 90%' of Russian airstrikes in Syria have not targeted Isis, US says

 
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Ali raced her 15 miles to the nearest medical station, but doctors there could do little more than stabIlise her for a three-hour drive to the Turkish border, in an ambulance that was more like a truck.
A drive in darkness, haste and confusion was followed by three hours waiting at the border, moaning in pain and terrified she was dying. They were finally escorted across the border to begin treatment, but two months later she still has no movement in one arm, and can barely walk because the sores and burns on her legs are yet to heal.
They were only in the path of the bombs because the war has dragged on so long. The whole extended family fled to Turkey in 2012, but two years ago pension payments to Abdulrazzaq, a retired officer in the Syrian military, were stopped by the government.
They could no longer afford rent. But, anxious to avoid the grim refugee camps and reassured that their home was under firm rebel control and had never been bombed or taken by the regime, they decided to risk returning.
Only Suheer stayed with her husband, who had found a job in Turkey. She missed her parents and siblings badly, though, and after two years persuaded her husband to let her take the children back to celebrate Eid. They crossed back into Syria days before the Russian campaign began.
Raghat died in new holiday clothes and a bead bracelet bought by a favourite aunt, Rasmea, who studied computer engineering before the war. “We were shopping, came home, did some pictures, and then – the end,” she says. She still wears her niece’s bracelet, faded now to dull browns and blacks. Her Facebook profile picture is a montage of images of Raghat, both radiant in life and mutilated in death.
“Why are the Russians bombing Syrian people, what have we done wrong?” she says, on the verge of tears. “We want people to see what is happening in Syria, please tell the world.”
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sunderpitt
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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  Hieronymus on 2015-12-04, 3:10 pm

Heartbreaking, and I am sure there are many, many more stories like this. But the Russians have their own agenda and worying about "collateral damage"does not come into it, it seems. 

While I am totally against bombing apparently in all the missions our RAF have undertaken in Iraq, more than 400 sorties, there has not been a single reported civilian casualty. So let us hope that in this instance the UK adding their firepower will help reduce these casualties. 

I know I am clutching at straws to be honest  Crying or Very sad
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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  sunderpitt on 2015-12-04, 3:13 pm

Hieronymus wrote:Heartbreaking, and I am sure there are many, many more stories like this. But the Russians have their own agenda and worying about "collateral damage"does not come into it, it seems. 

While I am totally against bombing apparently in all the missions our RAF have undertaken in Iraq, more than 400 sorties, there has not been a single reported civilian casualty. So let us hope that in this instance the UK adding their firepower will help reduce these casualties. 

I know I am clutching at straws to be honest  Crying or Very sad



Err How would we know there had been any civilian casualties they would not tell us.
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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  Hieronymus on 2015-12-04, 5:13 pm

sunderpitt wrote:
Hieronymus wrote:Heartbreaking, and I am sure there are many, many more stories like this. But the Russians have their own agenda and worying about "collateral damage"does not come into it, it seems. 

While I am totally against bombing apparently in all the missions our RAF have undertaken in Iraq, more than 400 sorties, there has not been a single reported civilian casualty. So let us hope that in this instance the UK adding their firepower will help reduce these casualties. 

I know I am clutching at straws to be honest  Crying or Very sad



Err How would we know there had been any civilian casualties they would not tell us.
I was just repeating what an RAF guy based in Akrotiri and in charge of the bomber crews based there said on TV yesterday or day before. I feel it is likely to be true because the Iraqui's/insurgents would certainly publicise to the world, if there had been civilian casualties from RAF bombing raids. They would not miss that opportunity.
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Re: Syria bombing: Where UK parties stand

Post  Billy D on 2015-12-04, 7:38 pm

RAF pilots will kill civilians, it's inevitable. This is just anti Russian propaganda.
Have the Yanks joined in yet? If they have god help our lads if we send ground troops in.
We lost more men to their 'friendly fire' than we did to the Iraqi's in the first gulf war.
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