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SunderMad Blog--HAVE THE TORY'S PLAYED A BLINDER?

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SunderMad Blog--HAVE THE TORY'S PLAYED A BLINDER?

Post  cyprussyd on 2015-04-18, 8:46 am

SunderMad Blog



It seems only a short time ago that the UK was awash with referendum fever, south of the border the Westminster chattering classes joined together to put those pesky Scotts in their place. North of the border the population were energised and both sides and a passionate battled ensued.

Cameron pleaded for a United Kingdom and he pleaded to put aside party politics and join together in the fight, and like a lamb to the slaughter Labour agreed.

Just to stir things further we saw many complain about the Scotts being anti English rather than pro Scottish, here is a very big difference between the two but the Labour troops and followers swallowed the line and in doing so further annoyed a passionate nation who wanted their independence.

We then saw two things that may well have hammered home the final nail in Labours coffin.

First the labour parties big hitters joined the Tories in their march north.

Second the biggest hitter of them all, ex PM Gordon Brown made his passionate speech for unity.

Was all of this a master plan from Cameron?

The yes campaign won but won by the smallest of margins, the Tories then twisted the knife and fell short on the promises made and in doing so handed the SNP an open goal, in Nicola Sturgeon they had the leader who is more than capable of taking that open goal and scoring.

Now we are weeks away from the general election and the Scotts are far from happy with their treatment, someone must pay but who.

Well the Tories cant be punished, they have the grand total of 1 MP, hardly a catastrophe if that 1 MP is kicked out.

The LibDems have 11 MP's so can be punished but Labour, well poor Labour have 41 MP's so could feel the full force of Scotland's revenge.

But who are the winners and losers in this?

Well the SNP look like being big winners and could have the extra strength to push for more powers, something the Tories have hardly been shy in pointing out.

The LibDems look like they could also be punished and in doing so reduce the possibility of Labour/LibDem coalition, good news for the Tories.

And the big losers of course are Labour who look increasingly unlikely to be able to form a majority Government.

So the Tory plan is working so time for phase two, start the scare stories about a Labour Government being supported by the SNP. The scare stories are working with staunch Labour supporters in panic about any thought of their beloved Labour being beholding to those pesky Scott's.

So well done Mr Cameron, you do indeed have a plan and it seems to be working, however, a wee word of caution.

The Tory Government of the last 5 years have done some good things but, any good has surely been heavily outweighed by the bad.

The suffering by those at the bottom of the pile means little unless of course you are at the bottom of the pile, those people don't have much but the one thing they do have in common with the rich is the right to vote and they will in their thousands.

We hear from the Tories that Milliband and Labour will be a disaster and they may well be but, when you have nothing, and I mean nothing then disaster is already here, it really cant get any worse when even death is an escape.

I honestly believe that the real casualty of whatever political games are being played will be the old, outdated and greatly mistrusted two party system that will always leave the majority without a voice.

The polls consistently show around 34% for Labour and 34% for Conservative. So that leaves 32% who want neither and we know that one of these two will win. You don't need to be a mathematical genius to know that whoever wins with maybe 35% of the vote it will leave a 65% majority with no representation, some democracy.

Of course if you are in that 30%+ who support one of the big two you, IMO, have no interest in democracy, all you want is your side to win and bugger the rest of us.

My prediction is, looking at the polls, we will end up with a Labour minority Government with no coalition. In its place will be a Government that survives by having the support of the LibDems,SNP,Greens on a vote by vote basis.

I hear the cry s now, chaos, Labour wont be able to push through their policies, correct, pushing through will be over.

In its place will come talking, agreeing with all having a say. Yes there are risks but for the many at the bottom it will be a risk worth taking.

Many will disagree and say no, it wont work.

I would say take a look around and ask yourself the question, how well has the old system worked?

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Re: SunderMad Blog--HAVE THE TORY'S PLAYED A BLINDER?

Post  Hieronymus on 2015-04-18, 11:38 am

Good blog Syd, except I must strongly disagree with you when you say "Of course if you are in that 30%+ who support one of the big two you, IMO, have no interest in democracy, all you want is your side to win and bugger the rest of us."

Yes, I support Labour and believe that a Labour government is the best hope for the country, but I certainly care passionately about democracy and the people who do not vote Labour or even Tory. I believe the most damaging blow to democracy is not voting. when you have the chance. Even voting for the least worst option is better than not voting at all! 

But you do make an important point; that we need a change in electoral system desperately. In 2010 there were 45,597,461 people registered to vote and only 10,703,654 voted Tory, less than 23.5% of the voting population.This small minority then applied their policies to the other 76.5% who did not vote for them. This is not democracy. 

And does anyone think for a minute that the 6,836,248 who voted Lib Dem expected to be supporting crippling austerity measures, or the bedroom tax, or the increase in tuition fees? I am betting very few believed if they voted LIb Dem they would get a Cameron government! But the system allowed Clegg, who was determined to be in power, to sell his soul to the devil. And the country has suffered greatly as a result IMO. 

So yes reform is long overdue. We need PR implemented to ensure our system is truly democratic and our Parliament more closely reflects the views of ALL the people across the whole of the UK.
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Re: SunderMad Blog--HAVE THE TORY'S PLAYED A BLINDER?

Post  cyprussyd on 2015-04-18, 12:24 pm

I love ruffling feathers Very Happy

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Re: SunderMad Blog--HAVE THE TORY'S PLAYED A BLINDER?

Post  Hieronymus on 2015-04-18, 1:12 pm

cyprussyd wrote:I love ruffling feathers Very Happy
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Re: SunderMad Blog--HAVE THE TORY'S PLAYED A BLINDER?

Post  Billy D on 2015-04-18, 4:50 pm

Hieronymus wrote:Good blog Syd, except I must strongly disagree with you when you say "Of course if you are in that 30%+ who support one of the big two you, IMO, have no interest in democracy, all you want is your side to win and bugger the rest of us."

Yes, I support Labour and believe that a Labour government is the best hope for the country, but I certainly care passionately about democracy and the people who do not vote Labour or even Tory. I believe the most damaging blow to democracy is not voting. when you have the chance. Even voting for the least worst option is better than not voting at all! 

But you do make an important point; that we need a change in electoral system desperately. In 2010 there were 45,597,461 people registered to vote and only 10,703,654 voted Tory, less than 23.5% of the voting population.This small minority then applied their policies to the other 76.5% who did not vote for them. This is not democracy. 

And does anyone think for a minute that the 6,836,248 who voted Lib Dem expected to be supporting crippling austerity measures, or the bedroom tax, or the increase in tuition fees? I am betting very few believed if they voted LIb Dem they would get a Cameron government! But the system allowed Clegg, who was determined to be in power, to sell his soul to the devil. And the country has suffered greatly as a result IMO. 

So yes reform is long overdue. We need PR implemented to ensure our system is truly democratic and our Parliament more closely reflects the views of ALL the people across the whole of the UK.
Spot on.
That's what I was trying to say the other day but was simply told I was wrong.
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Re: SunderMad Blog--HAVE THE TORY'S PLAYED A BLINDER?

Post  cyprussyd on 2015-04-18, 6:02 pm

IMO you are both wrong, yes Clegg saw a chance of power and took it, nothing wrong with that. I think it was obvious he wanted to form a government with Labour but they did not want to play.

As the smaller party in a coalition he was always going to have to back down the most but I would say that the Tories pleas for a majority government so they can act without the LibDems holding them back says a lot.

I am no fan of the Tories but do think it would have been even worse without the LibDems.

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Re: SunderMad Blog--HAVE THE TORY'S PLAYED A BLINDER?

Post  Hieronymus on 2015-04-18, 7:07 pm

cyprussyd wrote:IMO you are both wrong, yes Clegg saw a chance of power and took it, nothing wrong with that. I think it was obvious he wanted to form a government with Labour but they did not want to play.

As the smaller party in a coalition he was always going to have to back down the most but I would say that the Tories pleas for a majority government so they can act without the LibDems holding them back says a lot.

I am no fan of the Tories but do think it would have been even worse without the LibDems.
There is a lot wrong with seizing power at any price quite frankly! 

By forming a coalition with the Tories Clegg he was a traitor to the vast majority of LIb Dem voters who voted for liberal and progressive policies. Even worse he did not do this to prevent things from being 'even worse', it was done purely and simply so Clegg could have his one and only shot of power. 

Without LIb Dems propping up the Tories they would NEVER have passed most of the austerity measures and changes to the NHS and education, that have caused ordinary people so many issues, and that you yourself have complained so bitterly about. 

Even more likely, we would have had to have another election as the Tories would not have been able to stumble along as a minority government and we might have got rid of them sooner, and prevented so much damage to so many families.

So Clegg grasping power the way he did was not only 'wrong', it was anti-democratic and a betrayal of his own party and over 6 million Lib Dem voters. For me he sold out the British people for 30 pieces of silver. I hope he thinks it was worth it when he loses his seat and is voted out of Parliament on May 7th, which is the least he deserves.  Twisted Evil
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Re: SunderMad Blog--HAVE THE TORY'S PLAYED A BLINDER?

Post  cyprussyd on 2015-04-18, 7:23 pm

Hieronymus wrote:
cyprussyd wrote:IMO you are both wrong, yes Clegg saw a chance of power and took it, nothing wrong with that. I think it was obvious he wanted to form a government with Labour but they did not want to play.

As the smaller party in a coalition he was always going to have to back down the most but I would say that the Tories pleas for a majority government so they can act without the LibDems holding them back says a lot.

I am no fan of the Tories but do think it would have been even worse without the LibDems.
There is a lot wrong with seizing power at any price quite frankly! 

By forming a coalition with the Tories Clegg he was a traitor to the vast majority of LIb Dem voters who voted for liberal and progressive policies. Even worse he did not do this to prevent things from being 'even worse', it was done purely and simply so Clegg could have his one and only shot of power. 

Without LIb Dems propping up the Tories they would NEVER have passed most of the austerity measures and changes to the NHS and education, that have caused ordinary people so many issues, and that you yourself have complained so bitterly about. 

Even more likely, we would have had to have another election as the Tories would not have been able to stumble along as a minority government and we might have got rid of them sooner, and prevented so much damage to so many families.

So Clegg grasping power the way he did was not only 'wrong', it was anti-democratic and a betrayal of his own party and over 6 million Lib Dem voters. For me he sold out the British people for 30 pieces of silver. I hope he thinks it was worth it when he loses his seat and is voted out of Parliament on May 7th, which is the least he deserves.  Twisted Evil
Well it looks like we disagree. I think the country was in a mess and needed sorting, I dont have a problem with that. My problem is the heavy price paid by those at the bottom of the pile.

Clegg, IMO, was dammed if he did and dammed if he didnt. I think he is actually a decent man who was placed in an impossible position. I am in no way saying I am happy with how things turned out but I'm not sure I lay it all at Cleggs door.

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Re: SunderMad Blog--HAVE THE TORY'S PLAYED A BLINDER?

Post  Billy D on 2015-04-18, 7:28 pm

Clegg = puppet
Clegg = liar
Clegg = traitor.

H, you are spot on.  thumb
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Re: SunderMad Blog--HAVE THE TORY'S PLAYED A BLINDER?

Post  Billy D on 2015-04-18, 7:30 pm

cyprussyd wrote:IMO you are both wrong, yes Clegg saw a chance of power and took it, nothing wrong with that. I think it was obvious he wanted to form a government with Labour but they did not want to play.

As the smaller party in a coalition he was always going to have to back down the most but I would say that the Tories pleas for a majority government so they can act without the LibDems holding them back says a lot.

I am no fan of the Tories but do think it would have been even worse without the LibDems.
Actually, Labour offered him it but the weakling chose to bed in with the Tories.
Like I say, the man & his party has zero principals.
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Re: SunderMad Blog--HAVE THE TORY'S PLAYED A BLINDER?

Post  Hieronymus on 2015-04-18, 7:48 pm

Billy D wrote:
cyprussyd wrote:IMO you are both wrong, yes Clegg saw a chance of power and took it, nothing wrong with that. I think it was obvious he wanted to form a government with Labour but they did not want to play.

As the smaller party in a coalition he was always going to have to back down the most but I would say that the Tories pleas for a majority government so they can act without the LibDems holding them back says a lot.

I am no fan of the Tories but do think it would have been even worse without the LibDems.
Actually, Labour offered him it but the weakling chose to bed in with the Tories.
Like I say, the man & his party has zero principals.
Here is an extract from a good critique of what happened in those 5 days in May 2010, as recalled by some of the people actually involved. I found this very interesting but not surprising.

"...  The key numbers were these: Labour plus Lib-Dems 315; Tory 307; other parties, almost all of them more anti-Tory than anti-Labour, 28. Adonis argues that neither the DUP nor the Nationalists would have voted with the Tories, thus creating a reliable majority of around 30. He goes on however to argue that the reason why the contorted discussions did not produce the desired left of centre result was ‘Nick Clegg’s instinct to go Right rather than Left.’

Like Cameron, Clegg emerged from the wealthy middle classes, attended a top public school and Oxbridge. He went on to work for a former Tory Cabinet minister at the European Commission. His highly ‘European’ family background qualified him for the LibDems rather than the Tories but it was towards the pro-market version of the party, the ‘Orange Bookers’ that he was inclined rather than that of Grimond, Steel and Ashdown. ‘The key point’ insists Adonis, ‘is that Clegg and Laws did not lead their party into coalition with the Conservatives despite Osborne’s austerity, but because of it

Given this leaning to the right, Adonis sees the crucial Monday 10th May meeting between Labour and the LibDem delegations as a piece of play acting by Laws and his colleagues. ‘It was important [for them] that talks with Labour should appear to fail.’ Adonis for his part, thought the meeting had gone well; the LibDems briefed that the meeting was a ‘disaster’ and that Labour seemed not to want a genuine alliance. He concludes that the resultant coalition ‘was a marriage of neoliberal minds’: it was basically Clegg’s fault for leading Labour up the Rose Garden path while always intending to tie the knot with his class cousin...."  (My bolding!)


http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/generalelection/the-road-not-taken-and-the-bad-faith-thesis-why-a-liberal-democrat-labour-coalition-never-happened-in-may-2010/
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Re: SunderMad Blog--HAVE THE TORY'S PLAYED A BLINDER?

Post  cyprussyd on 2015-04-18, 8:11 pm

Hieronymus wrote:
Billy D wrote:
cyprussyd wrote:IMO you are both wrong, yes Clegg saw a chance of power and took it, nothing wrong with that. I think it was obvious he wanted to form a government with Labour but they did not want to play.

As the smaller party in a coalition he was always going to have to back down the most but I would say that the Tories pleas for a majority government so they can act without the LibDems holding them back says a lot.

I am no fan of the Tories but do think it would have been even worse without the LibDems.
Actually, Labour offered him it but the weakling chose to bed in with the Tories.
Like I say, the man & his party has zero principals.
Here is an extract from a good critique of what happened in those 5 days in May 2010, as recalled by some of the people actually involved. I found this very interesting but not surprising.

"...  The key numbers were these: Labour plus Lib-Dems 315; Tory 307; other parties, almost all of them more anti-Tory than anti-Labour, 28. Adonis argues that neither the DUP nor the Nationalists would have voted with the Tories, thus creating a reliable majority of around 30. He goes on however to argue that the reason why the contorted discussions did not produce the desired left of centre result was ‘Nick Clegg’s instinct to go Right rather than Left.’

Like Cameron, Clegg emerged from the wealthy middle classes, attended a top public school and Oxbridge. He went on to work for a former Tory Cabinet minister at the European Commission. His highly ‘European’ family background qualified him for the LibDems rather than the Tories but it was towards the pro-market version of the party, the ‘Orange Bookers’ that he was inclined rather than that of Grimond, Steel and Ashdown. ‘The key point’ insists Adonis, ‘is that Clegg and Laws did not lead their party into coalition with the Conservatives despite Osborne’s austerity, but because of it

Given this leaning to the right, Adonis sees the crucial Monday 10th May meeting between Labour and the LibDem delegations as a piece of play acting by Laws and his colleagues. ‘It was important [for them] that talks with Labour should appear to fail.’ Adonis for his part, thought the meeting had gone well; the LibDems briefed that the meeting was a ‘disaster’ and that Labour seemed not to want a genuine alliance. He concludes that the resultant coalition ‘was a marriage of neoliberal minds’: it was basically Clegg’s fault for leading Labour up the Rose Garden path while always intending to tie the knot with his class cousin...."  (My bolding!)


http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/generalelection/the-road-not-taken-and-the-bad-faith-thesis-why-a-liberal-democrat-labour-coalition-never-happened-in-may-2010/
I would guess the truth is somewhere in the middle but I doubt we will ever agree. I would say that I think Clegg will be more right of centre than left.

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Re: SunderMad Blog--HAVE THE TORY'S PLAYED A BLINDER?

Post  cyprussyd on 2015-05-11, 4:38 pm

YES

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